At the end of the Divine Liturgy, the pew books have "Blessed be the name of the Lord, now and forever." sung once. The Liturgikon on the Patronage Church website has this verse being sung three times.

Which is it?

Ed

:::sarcasm mode on:::

Well, Ed...

We shouldn't be over doing this worship thing...

Singing it three times might be considered "Vain and Repetitious"

:::sarcasm mode off:::

I converted precisely because Father taught "Byzantine Catholics believe that if once is good many times is best." Now I'm not sure what to do.

CDL

It's still 3x per the new Liturgikon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

May one ask, which church have you gentlemen been belonging to? The settings of "Blessed be the name of the Lord" that are given in "The Divine Liturgies of our Holy Fathers John Chrysostom and Basil the Great" are those from the Slavonic collections of John Bokshaj and Father Sokol, which have been in standard use in the Byzantine Catholic Church for lo these many years. The first two, from Bokshaj, give the first phrase once and the "now and for ever" three times. The third setting, from Vespers, gives the entire text three times. The fourth setting, from Sokol and intended for Divine Liturgies "for the faithful departed" is unique in its two-and-a-half-fold repetition. None of this is new to anyone who has been going to church in our churches. Why this reaction?

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

In our church (OCA) we sing the whole thing 3 times.

At least in my area, the third setting (3 repetitions) is sung when we have mirovanije.

Jeff

I was unaware that my question or any of the previous responses qualified as a "reaction." There is a discrepancy between the online copy of the liturgicon and the pew book. I asked a question trying to resolve the discrepancy. People responded.

But, supposing that there was a "reaction", it might be due to the fact the Divine Liturgy was changed. Things that used to be done are no longer to be done. Things that weren't done are now supposed to be done. So an appeal to "none of this is new" in regard to a plain discrepancy between these two sources really doesn't help resolve the question.

In fact, quoting the title of a post I submitted earlier today, "Call me stupid." I have read your entire response several times now, and all the words make sense. But somehow I still don't feel like it answers my question.

Is the Patronage online version of the liturgicon correct? Or is the pew book correct? Or does the online version of the liturgicon differ from the printed version? I didn't think it was that hard of a question. But, to clarify, I am asking in regard to a normal Sunday liturgy - not a liturgy for the faithful departed, nor a Vespers service.

Ed

Ed, thanks for posting the website with the Liturgicon. My mom, who is RC and will be 93 years old in a few months, only started attending the Byzantine Liturgy a year ago. She has hearing loss and age-related problems in learning new things, and had never gotten the hang of tracking the old liturgy. She has even more trouble following the new liturgy books because they don't include the celebrant's prayers. Loss of visual acuity also make it difficult for her to read the rubrics, which--naturally enough--are printed in red.

Anyway, I downloaded the Liturgicon and blocked and copied the portions that include both the audible celebrant's prayers and the faithful's responses. I've made one booklet that will serve for the majority of the year. Later this year, I'll have to get a copy of the Liturgy of St Basil and do another set. And next year I'll make a set for Pascha.

Once again, thanks!

Ed,

IN PRACTICE, the prescription to sing "Blessed be the name of the Lord" three times is satisfied by singing the entire text three times; OR by repeating the conclusion three times. Both Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic churches have had this practice for a very long time. The prescription in the Liturgikon is correct, but adapted differently depending on how it the singing is done.

Jeff

I hope I have understood this conversation correctly. Ed sought to resolve a straightforward contradiction in written liturgical instructions. Professor Thompson provided some history without resolution. Jeff noted that while the written instructions indicate that "Blessed be the name..." is to be sung once, in practice singing "now and forever" three times is ok, more or less because that is the way it has always been.

This seems to go directly to the point of Ed's message on another thread, that while the revised liturgikon asserts its authority as the only way to conduct a liturgy, in fact, variations are permissible. Apparently, if Jeff is correct, it's even ok to interpolate such variations if the church has "had this practice for a very long time"--that is, by appealing to tradition. I am left wondering if we might revert to "loves mankind" and "for us men and for our salvation" and other traditional usages for the same reason.

Perhaps I am unable to distinguish between proper and improper reversions because this has been explained elsewhere in the forum and I am ignorant of those previous explanations. In any case if I have misunderstood the situation perhaps someone with greater knowledge can explain?

Thank you,

John Murray

Quite!

And the amending and waffling might even be amusing...

But for the fact that many aging and struggling parishes have had to pay good money for all new liturgical books, when that money could and should have been spent more wisely than on a liturgical text that, apparently, is as mutable as one needs it to be.

At that point it ceases to be the most Byzantine joke of the century...to date.

Mary

Yes, John--this is the one million dollar question. In my parish, which has implemented the RDL, the pastor continues to say "Loves Mankind" and at least half the parish continues to chant "men" in the Creed (although I am guessing that this happens due to habit with the exception of myself and a few others---I will always chant it this way intentionally because my heart tells me so).

Well, the simple answer here is that the hymn you mentioned is one sung by the people, not the priest. On this particular point, the "rules" of practice have always been more complicated than reflected in the Liturgikon, and there is no obvious disobedience in singing the settings of the people's hymns promulgated by the bishops, any more than there was a problem singing the same settings when the old Lekvulic book only gave the text once, without repetition. (The same case arises whenever a choral setting involves repetitions; if the base text is correct, it's "the same hymn" - unless the priest or bishop object, and then you don't use it.)

On the more general question of musical settings: I suggested (and will continue to suggest) that anyone who wants to use music beyond that in the new book speak with the priest involved, and with the bishop if necessary. If you want to use different texts, I'd suggest the same thing. That's really no different than we've always done. If you need to, say, go to an Orthodox source for propers you don't have, you check with the priest; if it looks like something the bishop might disapprove, you ask him for permission.

Jeff

P.S. John: I'm sorry that my response was not clearer. The Liturgikon (whether Slavonic or English) prescribes a triple "Blessed be the name". Sometimes this tripling has consisted of singing the entire text three times; sometimes only the conclusion is sung three times.

As a parishoner of Patronage church, I can say with some authority that only sing the whole thing once, singing "Now and forever" three times.