After returning to the southern US after living up north for a bit, my wife and I made it to a nearby BCC (not that nearby, but the only one even close). We knew the RDL was now in place, but we were looking forward to the experience of the liturgy, hearing the singing, the beauty of it, even if they did revise it (after having been attending the local RCC). What we got was something we did not expect.

The entire liturgy was read, there was no singing, not even an attempt at singing. We heard one lady behind us say "this is confusing". And frankly, it was, and very disappointing. From the prospective of myself who converted from protestantism to the BCC, this was completly unattractive, and definatley not "heaven on earth", as my old priest who brought us into the faith used to say.

Has anyone else experienced this ?

It took approximately two weeks in our parish in Binghamton before people were finding their place in the new books and the singing was starting to return to what it was before. On the other hand, some parishes are apparently waiting till the last minute to use the new books, and some pastors have said they do not intend to provide any guidance in using them.

You might need more information to find out whether this is a chronic problem in this particular parish, or a passing phenomenon.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

"The entire liturgy was read, there was no singing, not even an attempt at singing."

This phenomenon is, of course, completely illegal.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Ahh...are you now designated as the Grand Inquisitor, Professor?

What is the penalty for a parish priest not forcing a Church full of octagenarians to change?...or not yielding to weak liturgical theology?...etc.

Mandatory impoverishment...loss of pension....loss of health care?

It has come to my attention that you folks are encouraging selected laity to detail the levels of compliance of their priests, is there truth in that?

What do you do in parishes that have no cantors?...or parishes where the cantor quits rather than suffer the music or inflict it on anyone else?

I hear the music at Bishop Dudicks funeral mass was ghastly...or was that ghostly?....ahhhwell...He didn't have to sit through it and that is a blessing.

M.

A recited liturgy is more prayerful than that horrible music in the new pew book. At least if you recite it no one will laugh at the bad accents. It sounds like we just got off the boat!

Dear Desert Byzantine?

You've made this claim (about "bad accents") several times now, and others have repeated it. Can you provide some examples, please?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

I'm sure the folks at this parish didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...

Whose weapons are fear, surprise, and a fanatical devotion to the new pew books!

Bring out...the rack!

They'll be singing in no time--or else...the comfy chair!

Some of the music is just awful, Jeff. A+W+F+U+L

Unsingable

Depressingly banal

And not all of it is a restoration.

Some of the "accent" problems comes from a marked loss of power in the translation itself.

If the words have no power, the lines will have no power, even if perfectly accented.

Perhaps you could join the rest of us out here in the real world. I know they are not paying you for your boundless loyalty. From your own accounting, you pay them for the privilege.

Mary

Dear Mary,

No, I asked Desert Byzantine a very specific question. You mentioned parishes without cantors; old books or new, that is a rather wild anomaly and QUITE irregular in our tradition. The solution is to find someone willing to serve as cantor - and they will end up having to learn new things, whether using the old music or new.

The specific question I asked was: Could you please provide some example of "bad accents"? Saying "it's all terrible" and providing not a single example over the course of six months sounds less like constructive criticism and more like a knee-jerk "I hate brussels sprouts, nyah" argument. That's why I'd like a specific answer.

Jeff

Jeff,

My comments about this new liturgy have gone and are going directly to the bishops. You have absolutely no credibility. People have posted lots of examples here of bad accents and you keep pretending that this is the first you have heard about it.

Desert Byzantine

I'm not about to give a specific answer at the moment. But inadvertently I found myself listening to about 10 minutes of a recording of a service according to the Revised Liturgy from a large parish, celebrated by a priest (who is a friend of long standing and whom I therefore will not name). Just listening to it was excruciatingly painful. One of the "accent" problems is not so much the stress on one syllable rather than another, but the stress on one word rather than another - which destroys the syntax.

Fr. Serge

Dear Desert Byzantine,

That IS odd. I've been reading this forum fairly steadily for years, and the only specific "bad accent" I've seen claimed was a single phrase that I mentioned preferring a different translation for. I believe you said several months ago that there were "lots of examples" and I STILL haven't seen any. Credibility or not, I'd like to see you come up with one or two examples, or point me to the threads where these examples were posted.

I know of quite a few bad accents in the old music, both syllabic and phrase, and my chant teachers "back in the day" pointed mANY of them out and recommended ways to finesse them. I would honestly be interested to know what you are looking at that rates such accusations.

Father Serge, your blessing!

It is certainly possible, either due to badly written music or to bad singing, to completely destroy a phrase; I heard this last week at a local Orthodox church, and it happens at ours as well. I would appreciate hearing your own list of such sore points, privately if necessary - in order to either find weak spots in the musical settings, or places for cantors to exercise caution.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Does the Ruthenian Church have Liturgical police officers?!?

Someone once said to me that the fact we are now chained to these new pew books, makes our Church very episcopalian in nature.

Whatever does this mean?

Judging by the reactions from the vostochniki in my old parish when a newcomer suggested we just have a "Low (i.e. recited) Liturgy" as provided for in our pew booklet, there certainly was a posse forming!



Jeff

The BCC was supposed to be following various documents from the Vatican on liturgics and traditions as well as the Recensio Rutena. Anyone familiar with the BCC knows how the reality pales in comparison to the theory. This could be considered just as 'illegal'.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"This phenomenon is, of course, completely illegal."

It's quite common from what I understand. In fact, many people prefer this option over the alternative.

Then you need to get out and around more, Jeff. From what I can see you do not have a broad knowledge of the local realities of your Church.

Given your willingness to advise and instruct, that kind of ignorance of the variations in local circumstances is unacceptable, and weakens your credibility in the eyes of those who are aware more broadly.

Mary

So everyone's a critic here?! How many critics were cantors prior to the RDL? How mnany even voluntered to help lead the singing in those parishes where the liturgy is recited. OPerhaps if more had volunteered then there would be less problems now?

Specifically, I was in Hazelton PA two years ago on a weekday and the liturgy was SPOKEN! (NO NEW RDL AT THAT TIME!!!!) SO, it can't have been spoken because of resentment or dislike of the translation (which does leave a lot to dislike). The priest and people spoke the entire liturgy in a hurried, monotone with the liturgy lasting barely 25 minutes.

Not what I would have considered prayerful at all!

At least now everyone has the same music in front of them instead of guessing what music version of the next hymn (or in one case, the next verse) will be.

Well, of course, we know from reading here on the Forum for the past two or three years that the answer to this sad reality, Steve, is to prune in anticipation of the New Springtime.

Just close all parishes where there are no cantors or no cantors for weekday masses.

See how simple that is?

Mary

*shrug* I've served in some 20 parishes in four eparchies and attended services in a dozen others. I stand by my assertion that

- spoken liturgy is quite out of the ordinary IN OUR TRADITION, MUCH more so than leaving the Royal Doors open or abbreviating litanies, and where it occurs is likely due either to adoption of a Roman "Low Mass", or the absence of a cantor. When such services have been mentioned here OUTSIDE of the context of the "changes", there was a rush to stigmatize them.

- as a rule, a cantor (or SOMEONE who can lead the singing, set pitches, and choose melodies and hymns to use) is necessary for our services, and parishes that do not have one need to make it a priority. You say its a shame we don't have Vespers and MATINS, and can't come up with a regular cantor for one hour a week and our simplest music?

Fifteen years ago, there were PRECIOUS few resources for cantors; there are more now. But I'm hearing here about parishes that have not had cantors for years, "and everyone is old and can't learn anything new." Well, that's two separate problems - but the first one is definitely not a result of the liturgical changes.

If your parish is within two hours of Binghamton, NY, and has no cantor, but has one singer willing to learn, I will come weekly on Sunday and stay long enough to get them to where they can lead services comfortably - and if any parish wants to start having Vespers, the same stands.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

There have been some mighty changes for the worse over the last ten years. Morale is awful in many places in our Metropolia. Rather than being supported in efforts to grow bigger and stronger, in some dioceses, there's been a conscious effort to squash growth, to choke off outreach and mission. These are facts.

I don't know the rate of the attrition of clergy across the Metropolia but the eastern most diocese has seen a frightening drop in the past decade and will not recover from that easily, and the average ages of priests and people in some parishes are edging into the 70's on account. So what might have looked good to you in the past does not look good now and will look worse if there is not an infusion of life soon and steady.

There are things you can demand of a parish with some young blood that you cannot demand of an old parish and an old priest...and I hope to God we don't stoop to being critical of the men who gave their lives for this Church.

The last thing this Church needed was a liturgy that is weakened in its theology with dirge-like melodies.

And you cannot tell me, in all truth, that every one of those settings are there because they are "authentic."

Some are as they are because of the translation itself in the places where it has become not only weak but exceptionally ugly, aesethetically. That is enough to warp any musical setting.

You don't need "bad" singers to blame for bad music.

I've listened to and looked at what is on the MCI site and some of it is horrid to the ear and to the soul. It is deadening, depressing and drab, even with trained voices.



This is precisely the thing that is going to be needed, to keep the pruning tool at bay.

That is a fine offer, Jeff.

I'd like to hear more offers like it!!

God bless you for it.

Mary

A very fundamental question is: To what extent is the Ruthenian Recension still held to be normative or relevant by the Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh. See:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/237147/page/1#Post237147

KO63AP's post is one that I missed the other day. It is probably one of the best and most poignant posts of recent memory.

It is hilarious, ludicrous, and sad to see after years and years of total disregard for various documents, traditions, liturgics, etc. that many of the people who ignored them are now demanding absolute letter of the law to the rewritten rules. I'm all for following the rules, our ancestors and those who came before us seemed to have done a pretty good job of spelling out what those rules were, are, and should be. Why the rules had to be changed to fit secular society is beyond me. Is it illegal to question secularism by the way?

Monomakh