In my studies, I stumbled across the following translation that is used in the Syriac Catholic Church. You will notice the same translation (i.e., "for us ...") as the new translation of the Divine Liturgy in the Ruthenian Eparchies.

The Syriac Catholic Church:
We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.



For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the Resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

I wonder if the Syriac Catholic Church has completely fallen apart over the "for us..."

I'm beginning to believe there's much more going on over this contraversy than the accuracy of the new translation.....

Alex - that is not the translation I have in my English/Syriac pew book which was used when I last attended Quorbano at Our Lady of Deliverance celebrated by Mar Ephraim Joseph several years ago. The English text on the website that is referred to does not appear to have any approbation of Patriarch Ignatius, Mar Joseph, the Synod nor has it been recently updated, either.

The Armenian, Malankara, Chaldean and Maronite Catholic English translations in use all retain "men". I don't have a Malabar text so I can't speak to that, but the clear majority usage of Oriental Catholics speaks for itself.

The Filioque is retained in that version cited as well - so hardly something to be held up as an example.

Fr. Deacon-

Good point on the Filioque. I have yet to see any absolutely convincing (convicting) evidence that the usage of "for us" is a result of gender neutrality (or inclusiveness), as opposed to a more modern English translation indicating the original intent. I have read most of the arguments on this thread.

Once we have gone beyond the general hysterics, at least we can agree that some of the wording in the liturgy is stilted, at best, in spite of what were perhaps the best intentions.

Hardly something by which to lose one's faith. I've seen it happen to a few in my parish, and its disappointing - the reaction is somewhat similar to the knee-jerk reactions of politicians I despise - but there's not even any votes for which to pander!

All the best,

I would note: the Maronite's Qurbono: The Book of Offering's Scripture citations are from the NRSV: Catholic Edition and the Psalms from the Revised NAB. The Lectionary is NRSV as well.

But also let us not forget what literally one iota did to the Church as well.

Now that it is more readily available, I was wondering if you have the same reaction to Father Serge's published response to the Byzantine RDL?

Mary

Well, let's see...

The Liturgy has been truncated (antiphons etc), questionable translations in many areas, inclusive language, confusing books, awkward music in places, chaotic rubrics......

I would not say reasons to lose one's faith, but perhaps reasons to find another Eastern Catholic or an Orthodox Church.


R

One thing to be kept in mind. The Syriac Catholic Church is truly a very small operation.

Dn. Robert

And you don't think the Ruthenian Rite in North America is? Which statistical numbers do you follow?

One can find nearly anything if one looks hard enough.

Since the BBC is keen on showing "Church A follows practice Z which we've instituted, Church B follows practice Y, etc.", perhaps someone should do a comparison of the English translations of the Creed from various Churches, showing how many say "for us" and how many "for us men".

Or maybe even, get the major Churches with English translations to hammer out a single version for use by all?

A nice idea, but that's all.

At one time the "Ruthenian" bishops (i.e. Ukrainians, the BCC, et al.) requested an authoritative set of liturgical books from Rome. The Holy See produce the Recensio rutena series of books, including the Ordo celebrationis - books which most people continue to ignore.

Certain people need to deal with some serious issues regarding 'those others' and co-operate for the good of the Church.

Sadly, we have no need of enemies - we have each other.

As small as we are, they are much smaller, even, from what I am told, in their homeland.

Dn. Robert

Just did a line-by-line comparison of this translation and, except for the deletion of "men," it is exactly the same one used in the Latin Church. It's ICEL's version from the 1974 Roman Missal.

Thought I felt a little deja-vu.

BOB