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#239531 - 06/13/07 12:30 PM America's strange laws
Zenovia Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 2483
Loc: White Plains, N.Y.
I thought this article about our laws from the BBC, would be interesting.
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6747807.stm

The rolling hills around Charlottesville are the sophisticated cradle of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

This is where Thomas Jefferson, that most famous of American Renaissance men, kept his ebony toothbrush, surrounded by his inventions, his fine French wines and, of course, his slaves.

The state of Virginia was the birthplace of eight US presidents

The town of Charlottesville itself is a gracious home to one of America's oldest and most venerable colleges, the University of Virginia.

But even towns like Charlottesville need a jail.

Perhaps in keeping with the sense of decorum, the Albemarle County jail is unusually pleasant.

Captain Jeanette Rush, the chief prison guard, is polite to a fault and generous about her charges. "They're people too," she told us, motioning to the prisoners who shuffle through the corridors in colour-coded uniforms that immediately tell you their status.

Male inmates wear black and grey stripes. Women prisoners wear red. The trustees, the prison elite who qualify for special privileges like more free time and longer visiting hours, wear Guantanamo Bay orange.

Elisa Kelly wears red. This is hardly surprising. She has only spent two days in jail and she still does not know her way round.

But what Elisa Kelly does know is that she will be here for two-and-a-quarter years.

It is a relatively short sentence compared to the murderers and rapists with whom she paces around the narrow, pit-like courtyard once a day for 10 minutes.

You might argue that Elisa Kelly, who shares her cell with nine other inmates, is lucky, because her original sentence of eight years was slashed to 27 months after a lengthy and costly appeals process which finally hit a dead end when the US Supreme Court refused to hear her case.

But none of that matters to Elisa Kelly, who barely rises above 5ft 3in (1.62m), wears her blonde hair in a bun and has the muscular stature of a former physical education school teacher.

Because, even in the presence of Ms Rush, silently and sympathetically listening to our interview, Elisa Kelly vents her anger and lets the tears flow.

"It's absurd. It's an injustice," she told me with red eyes that matched her uniform.

Elisa's crime was to hold a birthday party for her 16-year-old son Ryan and serve his friends beer

My boys don't just think I'm a good mother. They think I'm the best mother!"

I look over to Ms Rush, fiddling with a large bunch of bronze keys as if they were prayer beads.

She shrugs, smiles, and looks down at the grey carpet.

Elisa's crime was to hold a birthday party for her 16-year-old son Ryan and serve his friends beer.

As a precaution, she and her ex-husband, who is serving 30 days for bringing the alcohol onto the property, made sure that none of the kids would be able to drive home.

As they arrived at their 6000ft suburban mansion on the outskirts of Earlysville, she confiscated their car keys, put them in a bucket, barricaded the drive with her Hummer and told them to have a good time.

They were all expecting to have a sleep over and, since Elisa knew most of the kids because she had taught them at school, she did not think it was necessary to warn their parents that beer would be consumed.

At about 10pm the din of music and boys' voices was drowned out by police sirens.

Some 30 officers with guard dogs swooped on the red-brick house in Bleak House Road.

Someone shouted "cops!" and many of the boys dispersed into the surrounding forest.

Everyone was caught. The young guests were breathalysed and about half tested positive.

Elisa and her husband were immediately handcuffed and led away to jail. They both pleaded guilty.

In Virginia, like in much of the US, you can drive when you are 15, die in the army at 17 and buy a gun at 18.

But you cannot let beer or wine pass your lips legally until you are 21.

On that night in 2003 Elisa knew that she was breaking the law but since she was doing so at home, she did not think that anybody would know - or care, for that matter.

She was wrong. And now, through sobs and tears, she explains how she made a silly mistake but how her remorse is trumped by her anger at the punishment.

Selective Puritanism

The bizarre and selective Puritanism of the US is as old as the nation.

This country boasts a multibillion dollar porn industry that dwarfs the GDP of most developing countries.

The evening news is cluttered with adverts for erectile dysfunction: "If your erection lasts for more than six hours consult a physician."

But there were howls of outrage when the singer Janet Jackson allowed her left breast to be exposed in a "wardrobe malfunction" during the Super Bowl half-time show in 2004.

A friend of mine was lambasted by an elderly gentleman on a deserted beach in North Carolina for allowing her three-year-old son to roam naked in the sand.

The Freis too have repeatedly been criticised for consuming wine in the presence of our children.

Not that we were knocking back bottle after bottle, dribbling uncontrollably or throwing chairs around.

We are talking about a humble bottle of red, shared by two consenting adults. With food.

Old attitude

History provides an answer of sorts. There was, of course, prohibition.

The ban on alcohol was the only constitutional amendment (1920) that was overruled by another constitutional amendment (1933).

Henry Ford supported prohibition because he thought that booze slowed down his car workers.

The suffragettes supported it because they blamed alcohol for the rise in domestic violence.

Much of the public supported it because many of the breweries were in German-American hands and, after World War I, beer became known as "the Kaiser's brew" and "our worst German enemy".

But the resulting epidemic of deaths caused by moonshine (some 50,000 in 1923 alone) and the rise in organised crime (Al Capone) eventually killed off prohibition.

And yet, the spirit of prohibition lite lingers even today.

In Washington DC, a city forever vying for the title of murder capital of the US, liquor stores are closed on Sunday.

The same is true in Virginia, Wyoming and 32 other states.

It is not just about the evils and perils of booze.

It is about the intrusion of civic America into the lives of its citizens.

The Presbyterian Puritanism of the pilgrims and the founding fathers still haunts a nation that is forever trying to live up to abstract ideals and forever failing to do so.

It is the sober side of the American dream that will keep Elisa Kelly awake at night in her crowded cell at Albemarle jail on the lush outskirts of Charlottesville.



I recall how I was allowed to drink beer when I was a young child...it was considered healthy. I was told that my grandfather knew how to make beer, and made it in the bathtub during prohibition.

Today though there is a severe drinking problem with the teenagers in this area. It seems whatever is off limits, automatically becomes disirable...even to us Mediterreans.

God Bless,

Zenovia

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#239532 - 06/13/07 12:43 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Zenovia]
KO63AP Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ѳулκαндρα
I not sure if I agree with the prison sentence, but I do agree with the conviction. They contributed to the delinquency of minors.

There is a difference between providing an alcoholic beverage to your child(ren) in you own home and doing the same with a large number of children who are not yours. My parents would occasionally permit us to have an alcoholic drink, but never any of our friends, and never to us if we had friends over.

I blame the parents, not the laws. This is not to say that American doesn't have some rather odd laws relating to alcohol. Drive a car, pay taxes, die for your country - sorry, you're not 21, you are not permitted beer. Ridiculous!

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#239535 - 06/13/07 01:01 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Zenovia]
Happy Birthday Carole Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 432
Loc: North Alabama!!!
Wah! Poor lady. I feel so sorry for her plight. Oh wait ... no I don't.

Sorry. While I don't necessarily agree that serving alcohol to your own children is wrong or should be illegal the fact is that it is not news (nor should it be to any reasonable adult in the US) that serving alcohol to minors is against the law.

I don't agree that the drinking age should be 21. I think we should settle on one age of majority and then stick with it across the board.

But my feelings about these laws are irrelevant. I am, whether I agree with them or not, bound by these laws. Saying, "Oh well I know the law but I think it is stupid." is not a viable defense.

She chose to break the law. Thus she is responsible for serving whatever punishment the legal system deems right and fitting.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Whether you agree with the law or not, it is the law. She knowingly broke the law. She shouldn't sit around crying about it now.

Edited to add:

Quote:
My boys don't just think I'm a good mother. They think I'm the best mother!


Maybe she should be more concerned with obeying the laws and less concerned with being "the best mother" or her kids' friend. Parenting is not a popularity contest it is making difficult and often unpopular decisions in the best interests of your children. One of those decision is teaching your children that obedience to authority (secular and divine) is not a selective exercise.


Edited by Carole (06/13/07 01:04 PM)

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#239539 - 06/13/07 01:12 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Carole]
Alice Offline

Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 9758
Loc: USA
I think that what this post is trying to say is that we don't put crimes into perspective in this country...so child rapists roam among us, kidnapping, raping and killing (and having destroyed the freedom of children everywhere from playing outdoors like my generation did), while alcohol related crimes, though still crimes, get more time.

(I don't want a website to see what child sex offenders live in my area--because quite frankly, they shouldn't be living ANYWHERE, but in jail, and there they should be castrated! THIS IS the travesty of our laws!)

Getting back to alchohol: Perhaps the reason that the Mediterranean countries don't have problems with alchohol like we do, (like the popular and dangerous practice of underage *funneling* of alchohol in U.S. college dorms) is because they have no age laws against drinking, and because they take a civilized approach towards drinking.

Like one of the Greek philosophers said (can't remember which one right now): PAN METRON ARISTON-- EVERYTHING in moderation....

That seems like something which we modern day Americans cannot grasp, whether it is the abuse of alchohol, drugs, medications, food, or sex. frown

Alice




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#239551 - 06/13/07 01:28 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Alice]
Annie_SFO Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 640
Loc: VA
When I was in college, the drinking age for beer and wine changed from 18 to 21, but I was "grandfathered," being 20 at the time. I never knew anyone in college who ended up hospitalized for drinking or anything nutty, which is far more commonplace now. My niece went to a college where kids died from drinking too much (alcohol poisoning) and the ambulance showed up almost weekly because of drunken, underage kids. That doesn't mean people didn't over imbibe when we were legal - I lived in the jock dorm, a notorious place for partying. But beer and wine were not verboten. It was at campus-sponsored functions until the age changed. You used to get two free beers at certain basketball games on campus. But I never saw a beer bong in college, not even in the jock dorm, and I never knew anyone to drink to such excess that the ambulance was called or, heaven forbid, they actually died. What is the point of acting like an idiot and hurting yourself? I must be getting old, because I don't get kids today!

I'm not sure lowering the drinking age is the right answer, despite my own observation of how my cohorts behaved. I'd also note that when I was in college, my friends and I tended to have jobs. You'd have a job, have an academic scholarship to juggle, play a sport, and have an internship all going on. Not much time to get into trouble. College kids now seem to have more time on their hands to get into trouble. We were less idle. We were working a good deal of the time. My friends and I spent more of our leisure time hitting tennis balls or visiting museums than we did wasting time drinking beer. If we were sitting around at the end of the day, we were unlikely to declare in Miller time. We were too tired.

As to the beer at the kid's party mom outside Charlottesville. Well, you do the crime, you risk doing the time. Sometimes the book gets thrown at you, sometimes it does not. Part of the story in the Washington Post was that the mom encouraged the kids she gave beer to to lie about what happened. Remember that in Virginia, we still have a couple dry counties; welcome to Dixie. I would not have done what she did, so it is hard to emphathize with her, other than to view her as a person who had a serious lapse of judgment and paid as severely as she could be made to pay for it. I bet she won't give a kid a beer again without seeing two forms of ID. Harsh lesson learned.








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#239552 - 06/13/07 01:28 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Alice]
Happy Birthday Carole Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 432
Loc: North Alabama!!!
I don't disagree that the laws themselves are problematic. But that is a separate issue from the issue of this mom crying over her punishment. The fact is she knew the law and she willfully broke it.

I get that there is a dichotomy in the legislation.

But then would we be saying that if one of these kids had gotten a hold of car keys and driven and killed someone? Or if one of the kids drank himself into an alcohol poisoning induced coma? Or if some of the kids, while drunk, decided to have sex and got pregnant? Or two of the kids in a drunken state got into a fight and injured one another?

Perhaps the laws are absurd. Perhaps they are not.

But using her "sob story" (literally) as the illustration of that absurdity is ... well ... absurd.

You don't have to like, agree with or find fair a law - you just have to obey it. She didn't. Now she's paying the price for it.

And I am pretty certain that if you look you can find similar examples of absurd injustices in legislation around the world. This is not a uniquely American concept.

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#239555 - 06/13/07 01:31 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Annie_SFO]
Happy Birthday Carole Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 432
Loc: North Alabama!!!
Originally Posted By: Annie_SFO
Remember that in Virginia, we still have a couple dry counties; welcome to Dixie.


We actually live in a dry town here in Alabama and there are quite a few cities/towns that are dry in the Heart of Dixie. We have pretty strict "blue laws" that prohibit the sale of alcohol on Sundays.

I don't agree with these laws. In fact I think they're pretty stupid. But again ... I don't have to agree with them. I just have to follow them.

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#239565 - 06/13/07 01:52 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Alice]
Happy Birthday Carole Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 432
Loc: North Alabama!!!
Originally Posted By: Alice
(I don't want a website to see what child sex offenders live in my area--because quite frankly, they shouldn't be living ANYWHERE, but in jail, and there they should be castrated! THIS IS the travesty of our laws!)


I'd be all for that if it differentiated between types of "sexual offenders."

I have a good friend from high school who is married to a man who would, if the situation happened today, have to be a registered sexual offender.

His offense?

Having sex with the woman who is now his wife.

It was his senior year in high school. He was 17. She was a 15 year-old junior in high school. They'd been 'going steady' since she was 12. Her parents found out they were having sex and pressed charges under the statutory rape laws of our state.

He was convicted of "lewd and lascivious acts with a minor" and sentenced to 5 years probation. For consentual sexual relations with a girl who was 3 months away from the age at which the state considers a girl able to consent to sex.

After graduating from high school and turning 18 the two were married are are still married now, 20 years later. They have two children.

I have a hard time thinking that his conviction should have resulted in castration. Or that this situation is or should be treated like an adult who has sexual relations with a child or a rapist, or other true sexual predators. Yet under current laws in the state in which I used to live, he would now be required to be registered as a sexual offender.

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#239573 - 06/13/07 02:18 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Carole]
Alice Offline

Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 9758
Loc: USA
Therefore, our laws do need some serious revamping! I see and understand the loophole you are speaking about.

I, ofcourse, was referring to those demons of society that prey on small children, kidnap them, rape them, rob them of every dignity and innocence, and usually also kill them! These men deserve castration and not one day of freedom!

Sixteen year olds in my state can tell their doctors that they are having sex, have an STD, or get an abortion, and the doctors WILL NOT tell the parents! Those children are also allowed to operate an automobile, and in two years can fight for their countries and kill and get killed, yet not have a glass of wine whilst away in combat because they are not 21 yet!!! Our laws are really crazy!
crazy
Alice

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#239576 - 06/13/07 02:21 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Alice]
Penthaetria Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 652
Loc: DC area
Originally Posted By: Alice
Like one of the Greek philosophers said (can't remember which one right now): PAN METRON ARISTON-- EVERYTHING in moderation....
No wonder you can't remember, Alice. It was said by one of the more obscure philosophers: Aristotle.

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#239590 - 06/13/07 02:54 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Alice]
KO63AP Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ѳулκαндρα
Originally Posted By: Alice
(I don't want a website to see what child sex offenders live in my area--because quite frankly, they shouldn't be living ANYWHERE, but in jail, and there they should be castrated! THIS IS the travesty of our laws!)

As women can't be castrated, what sort of punishment do you propose for female sex offenders?

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#239597 - 06/13/07 03:11 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: KO63AP]
JonnNightwatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 1014
Loc: Chattanooga
no comment from me. it wouldn't be fitting.
seriously, take the whole bunch and ship them off to an island somewhere, WITH NO INTERNET where they can make their lives far away from children. sterilization may be a bit overdoing it, as they cannot relate to an adult on a level that most, if not all of us have done (yes, I've done it too in my younger days, I used to be Snow White, but I drifted), so they can't breed kids to molest.
believe me, as a moderator on a site that is primarily young people, I have had to deal with this ilk more than once. they can live on the Moon, but if they have access to the Internet, they can still reach out their tentacles. as one who at the age of seven or eight was almost yanked into a car by one of their ilk, I am hyper sensitive about protecting kids. thee is a church in California that has been dealing with the issue of letting a convicted molestor (ex con) from participating in their community life. sorry, but I would say no. give them a Bible and point them to a rescue mission if they want to go to church.sorry if I sound unloving, but kids need and deserve that love so much more. they did not ask to be victims potential or otherwise, now did they?
Much Love,
Jonn

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#239601 - 06/13/07 03:41 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: KO63AP]
Alice Offline

Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 9758
Loc: USA
Sorry KOPSAR, (sorry, I haven't caught your real name), if I have somehow offended you. Most honorable men I know agree with me.

There are indeed some very sick women in the world, but the majority of such HIDEOUS crimes of kidnapping, rape and murders of small children are committed by men, or do you not agree with that?

Anyway, I won't entertain your question further, because you have made your intentions towards harrassing me most obvious.

Have a nice day, friend!

Alice

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#239605 - 06/13/07 04:00 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Penthaetria]
Wondering Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1407
Loc: USA
I want to clarify one thing: I am not aware of a US state that doesn't allow parents to serve their own children alcohol while in their presence.

The legal problem, as someone noted above, was serving the other children. Further, their own parents were not even aware of the alcohol, and all the people present obviously knew what they were doing was illegal since they scattered when they saw the police.

I've known "parents" like this and don't have any sympathy for her. She isn't even remorseful and continues to defend being a great mom! Two and a half years is a lot. I think they should have put the kids in jail for 3 weeks for public intoxication or intoxication of a minor and then given the mom at least as much time and a full sentence of public service.

Unfortunately, I've seen what public service means. In many instances, it is no worse than study hall as they answer phones or file papers, and in between write friends text messages or read Teen Magazine.

I think the age of majority should be the same across the board as well. It is a proven fact that adolescence is now extended by a number of years. I think the age of majority should be 21 for everything, with hardship exceptions allowable through the courts. It is so odd that we have a society that increases the time of adolescence then decreases the time at home. Of course college kids are getting in trouble!

Whatever happened to hall mothers? We had them. They weren't this type of mother, either. Now they have peers to guide them. In this case it is an emotional peer, while in most it is also a physical peer. Like the blind leading the blind...

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#239607 - 06/13/07 04:15 PM Re: America's strange laws [Re: Wondering]
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6077
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
I, ofcourse, was referring to those demons of society that prey on small children, kidnap them, rape them, rob them of every dignity and innocence, and usually also kill them! These men deserve castration and not one day of freedom!


Alice - I have to agree with Kobzar here

Quote:
As women can't be castrated, what sort of punishment do you propose for female sex offenders?


Castration - yes - certain parts have been 'used' to commit an offense - so you would also cut off the hand of someone who steals ? Or in the case of a woman who commits adultery carry out genital mutilation so she cannot offend in this way again ?

Yes when we hear of punishment carried out by Muslims for these types of sexual offenses we scream and say this is unchristian and should not be allowed.

This is a very emotive subject and at a time when a small child in Portugal is missing [ and has been now for over a month ] and no doubt other children in the USA and other counties too , we should not be speaking like this.

In the case under discussion - under age children being given drink by a parent - the woman knew she had broken the law - she offended deliberately - this is very wrong and punishment was duly prescribed. This was also what happened to a socialite recently - and I have memories of people saying that her punishment was too severe.

In both cases the offense could have led to death.

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