Wondering,

You misunderstand, I am not proposing going around ones hierach or pastor. Nor am I suggesting that Vespers or Matins be allowed to fulfill one's obligation, I don't think we are at that point yet. As Kobzar points out Vespers and Matins are preparation for Divine Liturgy, and should only substitute for it as a last resort if Liturgy is unavailable.

What I am saying is I don't think one is going to convince a pastor to get rid of Satuday night Liturgy, nor do I think they should while the canons are what they are.

What does have a chance for success is a group of dedicated laypeople who want to pray Vespers or Matins before Liturgy asking the priest for permission to do so. If the Rosary Guild can get permission to say the Rosary before Liturgy, a group wanting to pray the Divine Office should be able as well. If more start to attend the pastor may want to start serving.

On the otherhand, given that the new Liturgicons and people's books are set up for Vesperal Liturgies this may be the way to start.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon,

can we have a frank discussion here? The bishops could clear this up overnight if they wanted to. Why in the world our leaders don't want to lead is beyond me. The fact that 90%+ of our churches don't have Vespers or Matins is inexcusable. I know that you think it is because our current Canon Law (which is incorrect by the way) says that Saturday evening Liturgy is okay. Anyone with a fourth grade education knows that this is not our Tradition.

Archbishop Basil has called for an 'authentic place of worship'. Great, let's take the first step towards that.

You're right, no one is going to convince their pastors to get rid of Saturday evening liturgy. It is because we have an incorrect rule book that gives them a crutch to lean on and say that Saturday evening liturgies are correct when they are not. Our bishops should correct this error, plain and simple.
We should be following the rule that we're only supposed to have one liturgy per altar per day, but I'm sure that there is some revised canons that make that all go away too. When you get to control the pen and the rulebook it is amazing what one can do. By the way, how many of Eastern Catholic Bishops these days are monastic? Instead of defending our traditions, some are making it up as they go along. Then those who ask what is going on are called complainers.

Do you think Eastern Christians have a longer Tradition of Vespers and Matins or Saturday evening Liturgies?

Well at least we are getting more consistent. We have a chopped up and revised liturgy to match our chopped up and revised liturgical day.

It gets even more humorous when revisionists come on here and tell us all that it is the Orthodox that aren't serious about reunion.(I don't recall you writing this by the way, but others have). 90%+ of our churches don't have Vespers or Matins in this country, some diosceses of our Latin brethern have liturgical dancing and barefoot women on the altar spinning around with smoking bowls, etc. Yeah, it's the Orthodox that have to get serious, oh boy.

I don't know how much more of this I can take.

I don't know how this all ends, but it doesn't end well.


Monomakh

Alice has impeccable taste in avatars and icons.

[I chose that icon because I both liked it and thought it was the best of the available choices. However, the Administrator has uploaded a number of great icons since, and I may be changing it soon - once I pick one.]

Father Deacon Diak-

I like the meal analogy. In fact, I think Father Robert Taft used it somewhere as well. However, I don't think the dessert is the best analogy. Maybe we could say it's like eating the burger patty without the bun, accoutrements, and sides.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!

- Sticheron of Repentance, Sunday Vespers, Tone 4

Unfortunately, trying to get permission for a group a laity to pray reader's vespers before a Saturday night Liturgy would never fly in most eparchies (of the Ruthenian Church), even if you could find enough of them interested to do this.

The aping of other churches practices that is still happening today, is only opening the door to these becoming permanent additions to the Ruthenian Church. Encouraging Saturday night Liturgy or worse yet, the Liturgy/Vespers combo as a regular and normative part of the liturgical schedule and tradition only serves to dilute the rich heritage purported to be in the process of reclamation.

I'm sorry, there's no justification. Just my $.02.

"I was startled once, in an English-language OCA parish in western Canada - I went to Vespers and the service incorporated the reading of the next day's Gospel and a sermon based upon that Gospel, which I assume the priest also gave the next morning. Come to think of it, I've not been in that particular church since.
Fr. Serge"

Was this by any chance in Edmonton Alberta? That parish (St. Herman's) is a bit strange and has undergone a lot of problems and changes. To the best of my knowledge the OCA parish in Edmonton is now following the proper rubrics with different clergy and new members.

Father Deacon,

The particular law of the UGCC worldwide, canon 114 states:

Can. 114 (CCEO cc. 880 �3, 881 �4) Besides Sundays, the faithful are obliged to observe the following Holy Days:
1. The Nativity of Christ;
2. The Theophany of our Lord;
3. The Ascension of our Lord;
4. The Annunciation of the Holy Mother of God;
5. The Dormition of the Holy Mother of God;
6. The Feast of the holy apostles Sts. Peter and Paul;
On these days, the faithful are obligated to take full part in the Divine Liturgy, to hear the homily, and not to engage in strenuous physical labour. The synod of bishops encourages all the faithful to take part in the Divine Services during
the traditional holy days on the Church calendar.

You can find it at http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Particular_Law_Canons.pdf

I presume that this would override the particular law of the UGCC in America.

A few of us priests in Winnipeg asked years ago of our Metropolitan to allow people to fulfill any obligation by a generous application of the law (any of the major hours or Divine Liturgy) for a feast. There was no pause, no investigation, just a simple, No."

The Latins have an overall law, then the USCCB has their own they apply here in the states that is different. If the same model is followed in the Ukrainian Church, the particular law would govern first within an area.

Any eastern canon lawyers around?

Father bless.

Admittedly not being a canon lawyer, in the Latin Church the local bishop is the competent authority to mitigate obligations (transferring feasts, days of obligation, fasting, etc) of particular diocesan practice from the general law. I would assume the same with regards to our UGCC particular law.

On a tangent - I wonder if we can get equal enforcement of Can. 22 (CCEO c. 199 �2) The eparchial bishop is to see to it that in his own cathedral at least part of the divine praises are celebrated, even daily; also in every parish if possible, the divine praises are to be celebrated on Sundays, feast days, principal solemnities and their vigils...or Can. 116 (CCEO c. 886) "An iconostas is to be erected in every church, according to
liturgical norms."

It's the simple mentality of "If you don't 'get' something (Eucharist) at a service it has no value". I've even heard a priest preach to a couple hundred people 'you're wasting your time if you come to church but don't receive'.

I'm all in favour of frequent Communion but the attitude above drives home the belief that the only real corporate prayer, at least for laity, involves the Divine Liturgy. After one of the rare times we served Vespers someone approached me and asked about receiving Holy Communion. He had been to church for a service, ergo he should be able to receive. He was devastated when I explained things to him.

How can laity campaign for use of the Divine Office when their clergy are preaching the opposite. I've even had a priest (in one of our 'Orders') tell me about Vespers "Oh, that's something that monastics do".

Dear Father Deacon,

Thanks for the laugh!

Sadly, our hierarchs are 'cafeteria canonists'. They'll choose which canons they like and ignore the rest. Same goes for encyclicals, exhortations, etc. In regards to your specific examples, they'll probably play their trump card � "pastoral considerations".

Interestingly, about five years ago, I got the Cathedral rector to agree to let me and some others come to the Cathedral on Saturday evenings to celebrate Great Vespers. It was to be at 6:00 pm. We even agreed on a start date and shook hands on the matter. On the Wednesday before we were to start, I called the rector to remind him of our agreement. Sadly, he told me that we could not have Vespers every Saturday evening as he had put in place a Divine Liturgy (to count for Sunday).

You know... when I was first attracted to the priesthood, it was the Eucharist that drew me; but even as powerfully, the Divine Praises. Sometimes I wonder why people turn from the Beauty that is found in the praise and worship of our awesome God in psalm and hymnody.

Amen - I have to echo your words for myself as well. I even considered a Benedictine vocation for a brief while when still a young Latin in transition just for that reason - I have always had a great devotion for the Divine Praises. Some of my first encounters with the East were through Vespers or Orthros at Orthodox parishes as a teen.

On a more positive note, His Grace +Richard recently told me that while temporarily administering several parishes and missions in our area for the Eparchy of St. Nicholas I can use those provisions of the Pastoral Guide/Particular Law I cited and notify the faithful about their existence. He also blessed the regular celebration of both English and Ukrainian Vespers at St. Nicholas Cathedral on Saturday evenings.

Absolutely cool!