Cradle Byzantine Catholics are by nature defensive when it comes to traditional Prostopinije. The grew up with the Church Slavonic version of Prostopinije and are the laity that begs for the continued use of some Church Slavonic. They {we Vostochniki ;)} should be the most critical of any new musical settings.

Ungcsertezs

Father Deacon,

By convert do you mean former RCs or non-Catholics? (I read it as former RCs included and technically they're not converts although I know what you mean that they changed rites.)

I'm not a convert, I'm a cradle and I'm opposed.

I don't think that our Admin is a convert.

Etnick was not a convert before he went to the OCA.

Recluse is not a convert.

etc.

If you really want to set up a bifurcation regarding the demographics of it, I think that it is those who are not 'part of the Pittsburgh Club' and/or non-clergy are not in favor. Many who are Deacons, cantors in the 'Pittsburgh Club', etc. are in favor. Are there exceptions? Of course, but generally speaking, that is the way that the board seems to fall.

Monomakh

Jeff,

I will await the list of cantors who participated, as well as your responses to the many other questions about claims you have made. I am very much interested in speaking with them. You always seem to change the subject and conveniently forget to respond to the questions put to you.

As to �lots and lots of mistakes� there are. Hundreds is not an exaggeration if one does a sing through of the new pew book.

As to the soliciting input, I am not blaming you since I know that you were not a Commission member. Mr. Thompson was the lead member of the commission and successfully saw that his ideas were adopted. If the parishes flock to embrace the RDL�s new music he should get the lion�s share of the credit. If it fails he should get the lion�s share of the blame.

I do remain confused because you first claimed that the effort to include cantors was a great one and now you are suggesting that it was not, as demonstrated in your changed statements that it was not what it could have been. Please forgive me for believing others who were participants and who give a much different account than you do.

Since there is no choice now and the new music is mandated with no other music allowed we will quickly find out whether the people embrace the Revised Divine Liturgy � rubrics, texts and music. It is not your opinion or mine that matters now � it is the people�s. The multi-year experimentation at the cathedral in Munhall that has resulted in people fleeing the parish does not lend confidence to the venture. Nor do the reports of almost no singing at the Parma cathedral. The parish my mother attends started the RDL in late February. After 4 full months almost the only thing the people sing at all is �Lord, have mercy� (since most of them are unchanged). I�ve talked with priests who have already lost families. Since the mandate takes effect this week and all parishes will be celebrating the RDL from Friday forward we will soon see what the people think.

I am very willing to leave this discussion here and not continue it. For me it is now mostly academic. I am a loyal Ruthenian Catholic. Yet I find the Revised Divine Liturgy (incorrect rubrics and translations, offensive gender-neutral language, bad music) so painful that I cannot endure it, and am choosing not to worship in a Ruthenian Catholic Church. Oddly enough the Liturgy at the parishes I have visited so far in my search for a new home have a celebration of the Divine Liturgy that is far closer to the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy then that permitted in the Ruthenian Church! I will wait in the wings (as they say) with the prayerful hope that Rome rescinds the RDL or that the bishops come to their senses.

John

We had Slavonic Sunday today at my parish. I sang with pride the Otce Nas. Here's to you Ung-Certez, from one vostochnik to another!

Well I still have Holy Trinity and my Church Slavonic Prostopinije CD's and DVD's.

Ungcsertezs "Sit right back and listen to another thrilling tale (eh, Slavonic liturgy) of yester year, 'Spivaje Kantor...'"

I was baptized in the Latin rite as an infant, and have been attending a Byzantine church five or so years. And I've lived in Ohio my entire life, if that really matters.

One reason why former RCCers may be so sensitive about the RDL is the feeling of deja vu from a few decades ago. We heard the same pitch then that we're hearing now: the new liturgy would a combination of modernization plus a revival of old traditions, and liturgical experts assured us that it was just what we needed. They would create something that people would love to participate in.

For some peace of mind I attended a Tridentine indult Mass today. It was fine and holy. In terms of beauty, a big step up from my parish now, I'm sorry to say, but nowhere near where we were six months ago.

For those criticizing their Bishops, I would call to mind the words of Cardinal Newman - "God has an eye and an arm."

This came to my mind for some reason:

From The Way of a Pilgrim, p.118-119, trans. by Helen Bacovcin, c. 1992, Doubleday

"�Orthodox indeed,� he sneered. �You have orthodoxy only on your lips, but in action you are apostates�..What kind of a Liturgy is that? It is a sin! In our Church the Liturgy is celebrated with reverence; there is no skipping of parts, and the words are said distinctly; the music is touching; and the people stand in silence, men on one side and women on the other side; and all know when and what kind of a bow to make according to the regulations of the holy Church. Indeed, when you come into our Church you feel that you are attending a divine service, but in your Church it is not clear whether one is in the house of God or at a market!�

When I heard all this, I realized that the man was an Old Believer, but because he spoke to the point I could not argue with him or try to convert him. I only thought to myself that at this time it is impossible to convert Old Believers to the true Church. First we must improve our church services�The Old Believers are preoccupied with the external aspects of worship and they don�t seem to be aware of the interior man, while we are careless about the externals."

Today was the first time Holy Ghost parish (Mckees Rocks, Pa) used the RDL. It was also the first time that the HG congregation didn't sing along with the liturgy. A truly sad day for a parish that is used to strong congregational singing.

Vichnaja Pamjat'

Ungcsertezs

Anyone who seriously thinks that

does not know the Old Ritualists sufficiently well to have an informed opinion.

Fr. Serge

Good post. This idea of having to keep every note in Slavonic while neutering the words with gender-neutral English is a preoccupation with the externals.


Monomakh

Dear Rufinus,

Let me introduce you to a wonderful Latin phrase. If you need a translation just ask � I'm sure the majority of posters on ByzCath will be willing to help.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

I believe it was Rufinus who said that he did not have the knowledge to address the underlying theology that is being discussed in some of these threads, and went on to explain how he was enjoying the externals of the new Byzantine order, learning the chant from his CD's.

Perhaps he was just saying something about the Old Believers that he heard someone else say in passing.

Mary