The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (P H), 81 guests, and 458 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,737
Posts411,934
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: KO63AP] #242353 06/30/07 04:41 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Kobzar,

Actually it is written, in the CCEO:

Canon 390

1. Clerics have the right to a suitable sustenance and to receive a just remuneration for carrying out the office or function committed to them; in the case of married clerics, the sustenance of their families, unless this has been otherwise sufficiently provided, is to be taken into account.

2. They also have the right that there be provided for themselves as well as for their families, if they are married, suitable pension funds, social security as well as health benefits. So that this right can be effectively put into practice clerics are bound by an obligation on their part to contribute to the fund spoken of in can. 1021, 2 according to the norm of the particular law.

Canon 1021

1. Unless other provisions have been made, each eparchy, according to the particular law of the proper Church sui iuris of
which it is a part, is to have a special fund which collects goods and offerings, and whose purpose is to provide appropriately for the decent and fundamentally equal support of all the clerics who serve the eparchy.

2. Wherever social security and health insurance have not yet been suitably arranged for the clergy, the particular law of each Church sui iuris will provide for the creation of institutes safeguarding these benefits and put them under the vigilance of the local hierarch.

3. Insofar as it is necessary, each eparchy is to establish a general fund according to a manner defined by the particular law of its own Church sui iuris, through which the eparchial bishops can satisfy obligations towards other persons who serve the Church as well as meet the various needs of the eparchy; this fund can also be the means through which the wealthier eparchies can aid the poorer ones.




My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: EdHash] #242367 06/30/07 06:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Etnick Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Originally Posted by EdHash
Originally Posted by Etnick
Well lets not forget the THOUSANDS (probably) who gave up on the Byzantine church over the last 100 years and just went to the Roman church to "fit in" as Americans.


If people just don't want to preserve their Byzantine church (if the desire isn't there) then this unfortunate circumstance is understandable.

Where does this need to "fit in" come from? This implies that the Gospel message is subservient to one's personal desires or whims. I hope this is not so, but from what you stated it seems to be a century long practice.

I would think that "fitting in" to the Gospel proclaimed in the Byzantine church would be an honorable thing in itself worthy of educating the next generation and new members.

Eddie


By saying "fit in" I meant that the attitude was most American Catholics are Roman rite so lets just go there.

Many of my relatives did this as well as many people I've met over the years who say they have Byzantine roots, but it goes back to their grand parents or even great grand parents! sick They were baptized and raised RC. cry

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: PrJ] #242394 06/30/07 08:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
EdHash Offline
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
That salary sounds right. My Baptist friends get good pay. Even the music minister gets a salary of at least 30K.

The surveys on clergy salaries is enlightening. Catholics, I believe, got used to governments and nobles paying the salaries of their priests. In the US, it is based on contributions. many seem to expect their pastors, many who are not monks, to live the life of a monk (in poverty with an annual pitance, no wife or family, and obedience to a church shepherd). Don't get me wrong; I like monks.

But I find it strange to take a man out of his community, have him study in a monastic like community/seminary, then commission him to lead a community elsewhere on a pay less than minimum wage. Bottom line - you will not attract too many men to the priesthood. And what if that man has to live in an environment that is hostile to Christian virtues? I am thinking here of those Catholic seminaries that permit openly the homosexual lifestyle (please note that this is basd on studies I have read about Roman Catholic seminaries; I do not know about the one that only has four seminarians and cannot make a judgment). There becomes too many gauntlets for a virtuous Christian man to go through just to serve the Lord. And if he makes it to priesthood - given the way things are - how long will he last before he either leaves? Strong is the man who loves the way of the Lord and will serve Him despite all the hardships. But there is the family issue. A Christian man wants to please his wife and assure her of stability and faithfulness. you are correct, PrJ, to mention the catch-22 place a wife is put if she is made to be the financial crutch of her husband's ministry. in a crisis like this it is understandable how a church will find quick fixes that in the long run will dissuade young men to consider the ministry of priesthood.

I feel for you Byzantine Catholics. Beautiful churches, New Testament style of singing, strong in the faith, glorious past. any communities showing the opposite? any growing communities that are role models? if so, then how come these communities are not used as methods to halt the closing of churches?

I have relatives who used to belong to a Christian community (non-Catholic, non-Evangelical) which was contemplating closing its doors. Then they stopped complaining and decided to work for the Lord like there was no tomorrow. In-fighting was prohibited. In a symbolic act, they tore down their community buildings and place of worship and rebuilt all new. The teens were greatly involved in the whole process. Many of the famillies built their community worship center with their bare hands. Outreach programs began in every field and for every age. Senior ministries. Youth ministries. Study groups. Missions. Now they are contemplating remodeling their six year old house of worship since it is only standing room only. THEY KNEW WHO THEY WERE AND WERE NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; THEY WERE ON FIRE. They used to send candidates of ministry to a college over five hundred miles away. Now, they instruct their own ministers at home and house a number of visiting students from the same distance. Their senior shepherd (like a bishop) was against this and tried to sell their property to pay debts he was responsible for. He was eventually fired by his own people.

Eddie

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: harmon3110] #242407 06/30/07 09:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
M
Miller Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Quote
Personally I think the Church in the US would be better served to send our seminarians abroad for their training, that is if the theology of the new Byzantine liturgical order is a product of our seminary training here. Why corrupt a whole generation of European priests with Ortho-newspeak, and eastern Catholic follow-along?

Mary

Good idea Mary. I am sure the American students would welcome studying in classes with more students rather than the small classes in the USA. Also there would be a pool of more professors, each with specialized areas to teach. As you imply, pariticipation in a full liturical life would be of great benefit.

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Miller] #242408 06/30/07 10:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 501
O
Orest Offline
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 501
I agree, Mary's idea is a good one.
I know not know about your seminary, but maybe one of the professors could go over for 1 term with the first batch of students to help them adjust.

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Orest] #242421 07/01/07 12:00 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
ElijahmariaX Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Originally Posted by Orest
I agree, Mary's idea is a good one.
I know not know about your seminary, but maybe one of the professors could go over for 1 term with the first batch of students to help them adjust.


We have a number of priests who could do a credible job of taking seminarians abroad. They don't have to work at our seminary.

Mary

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Miller] #242422 07/01/07 12:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
ElijahmariaX Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Originally Posted by Miller


Good idea Mary. I am sure the American students would welcome studying in classes with more students rather than the small classes in the USA. Also there would be a pool of more professors, each with specialized areas to teach. As you imply, pariticipation in a full liturical life would be of great benefit.


They probably would and the language training wouldn't hurt them either.

There is grave concern even in Orthodoxy, [I don't mind saying even though I get slammed for saying such things] about the new breed of "bookish" priests, highly polished acedemics...or at least they tend to think so.

As our holy monks and bishops age and die, who will replace them? Not their book knowledge, of which they had a great deal, some of them, but their prayerful opening of the eye of the soul.

Humility is often in very short supply among academics.

Mary

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Orest] #242431 07/01/07 01:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
EdHash Offline
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Orest
I agree, Mary's idea is a good one.
I know not know about your seminary, but maybe one of the professors could go over for 1 term with the first batch of students to help them adjust.


How many of the four seminarians do you recommend go over?

Will they be permitted to marry? Maybe this is what they would welcome most.

What exactly would be the purpose of going overseas if the need is greater for Byzantine Catholics in the US?

Eddie

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: EdHash] #242434 07/01/07 02:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
harmon3110 Offline
Grateful
Member
Offline
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by EdHash

I have relatives who used to belong to a Christian community (non-Catholic, non-Evangelical) which was contemplating closing its doors. Then they stopped complaining and decided to work for the Lord like there was no tomorrow. In-fighting was prohibited. In a symbolic act, they tore down their community buildings and place of worship and rebuilt all new. The teens were greatly involved in the whole process. Many of the famillies built their community worship center with their bare hands. Outreach programs began in every field and for every age. Senior ministries. Youth ministries. Study groups. Missions. Now they are contemplating remodeling their six year old house of worship since it is only standing room only. THEY KNEW WHO THEY WERE AND WERE NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; THEY WERE ON FIRE. They used to send candidates of ministry to a college over five hundred miles away. Now, they instruct their own ministers at home and house a number of visiting students from the same distance. Their senior shepherd (like a bishop) was against this and tried to sell their property to pay debts he was responsible for. He was eventually fired by his own people.


God be praised ! What a good example this seems to be ! It is this kind of organic, gross-roots kind of church-building that is enlivening to a community. Happily, I have seen this in a Catholic parish and in an Orthodox parish too.

-- John

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: harmon3110] #242438 07/01/07 02:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
M
Miller Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 580
Dear Ed,
I want to address 2 of your posts:

Quote
How many of the four seminarians do you recommend go over?

Will they be permitted to marry? Maybe this is what they would welcome most.

What exactly would be the purpose of going overseas if the need is greater for Byzantine Catholics in the US?

Eddie


If you only have 4 students, then yes send all four over.
Yes, they should get married because that is the tradition and an important part of the spirituality of the Church.
Why? Because as Mary said and I agreed, it would be good training in the liturgical life of the Church. Also, I believe it would be beneficial for 4 students to study in a larger class of students and with professors who are specialists in various areas of Eastern theology, church history, liturgy and pastoral theology.

Quote
They used to send candidates of ministry to a college over five hundred miles away. Now, they instruct their own ministers at home and house a number of visiting students from the same distance. Their senior shepherd (like a bishop) was against this and tried to sell their property to pay debts he was responsible for. He was eventually fired by his own people.

Speaking as an Orthodox person, our priests can not be educated in a house. They need to have spiritual formation by living in a seminary where their character is under observation and where they partake in the full iturigcal cycle of the Church. Also their instructors should be professors not lay people who are busy with their own jobs 8 hours a day. The scenerio you describe may be fine for Protestants with their emphasis on preaching and Bible studies but not for my Church with its own spiritual traditions, liturgical life and theology.

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: harmon3110] #242439 07/01/07 02:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
EdHash Offline
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by harmon3110
God be praised ! What a good example this seems to be ! It is this kind of organic, gross-roots kind of church-building that is enlivening to a community. Happily, I have seen this in a Catholic parish and in an Orthodox parish too.

-- John


John, Can you share what they did to revive?
Eddie

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Miller] #242443 07/01/07 02:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
EdHash Offline
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Miller
Speaking as an Orthodox person, our priests can not be educated in a house. They need to have spiritual formation by living in a seminary where their character is under observation and where they partake in the full iturigcal cycle of the Church. Also their instructors should be professors not lay people who are busy with their own jobs 8 hours a day.


Can't this be done in the church community he live in? The seminary as an institution is a Catholic development.

There has been a lot of "characters" who have given the Catholic church a black eye for their behavior, which fostered in a seminary environment. Though it is good that there are seminaries that stress a more Christian way of life, not one indulging in sin. These schools are full, not empty or closed. I think removing a future shepherd from his sheep for so many years is dangerous. No one is called to a vocation of seminarian. but education is needed nonetheless. The Church cannot have dummies for shepherds.

Originally Posted by Miller
The scenerio you describe may be fine for Protestants with their emphasis on preaching and Bible studies but not for my Church with its own spiritual traditions, liturgical life and theology.


Do you think Orthodox "houses" of study like the one run by the Antiochians should be shut down because they are not seminary enough? I read that they are even tied in with the Presbyterians for their studies. What are your thoughts on this? I met some Antiochian priests and they are a joy to be around; their church communities are vibrant and full of educated and loving people. A few were former Protestants and even Roman Catholic.

Eddie

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: EdHash] #242444 07/01/07 03:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
EdHash Offline
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Should the Byzantine Catholic seminary in the US be closed? Is this the subtle hint being implied?

Maybe a the seminary idea isn't that bad. Maybe it is those who had enjoyed tenure too long?

I saw one Gospel school close due to "lack of students" and a "poverty of vocations to ministry". Then it reopened under a new administration, new rules, and a new code of ethics (administrators, teachers, and students had to sign a pledge for Gospel-centered ministry and against homosexuality which was one troublesome issue from the past). It is amazing what happens when one pours new wine into new wineskins. What was once haunting halls of yesteryear became a beacon of hope.

I don't want to speak on behalf of Byzantine Catholics, but maybe a few pink slips are needed. I hate to think that it would have to come to this, but it may send a signal to all the latent vocations out there that the church means business. If you are willing to send all the seminarians abroad at the expense of the US seminary's future then my suggestion might be warranted.

Someone once wrote thta this seminary has many students from off-campus. This is good ,but if they can't be priests then it is a false head count. The "seminary" lost its purpose and function to the church. It no longer educates "seminarians." The seminary model is basically dead.

What else can the seminaries overseas offer?

Eddie

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: EdHash] #242452 07/01/07 04:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560
T
tjm199 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560
"Should the Byzantine Catholic seminary in the US be closed? Is this the subtle hint being implied?"

I don't think that was in anyone's wildest imaginations. Just the opposite, in fact. As the person who started this thread I didn't have any agenda. I'm not saying you thought there was an agenda like that, but someone could construe it that way. I had a simple observation that more seminarians are being trained in Europe than America, and yet we have a great need for priests, wouldn't it make sense to transfer the available priests to where there is a need? One person early in the thread threw in the response about talking to the European Bishop Babjack in Presov, who said he has too many priests and would love to send some to America--but no one in America has asked!

There would be great cultural differences for a young seminarian coming from Europe to America for his last year or so of seminary. That was also pointed out by a previous post in this thread. Some European seminarians even wound up not completeing their studies due to the experience. I would suggest coming to America was not the only reason they dropped out, but I'm sure the cutlural differences was a factor. But before the second World War we used to send our seminarians over to Europe for their training. As ElijahMarie suggested, why not do it again? All we are doing is reinstituting a practice that was going on for decades. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. It's been there all along!

There have been many on this forum who bemoan the lack of Church Slavonic in the liturgy. Myself included. Given the fact that the new RDL doesn't even have a word of Slavonic in it, there's a good reason to speculate that it won't be around for long. Unless something is done about it. Sending an American seminarian to Uzhorod would certainly take care of that problem and in a hurry! I wonder how many of our Byzantine Ruthenian priests could even do a DL in Slavonic if they needed to? Some of the older ones certainly could. But they are the ones in their eighties. I am thinking of one in particular--Father Anselm Orlavsky who serves DL in Wall, Pennsylvania. His DL is, according to a current church member I grew up with and I feel is very trustworthy, about seventy to eighty percent Slavonic. And the place is packed.

So sending seminarians to Europe would help in many ways. Having a cross cultural exchange of seminarians might even be a better idea. But it would have to be done carefully. Maybe an exchange of professors at the seminaries would help as well? There has been many a comment on this forum about the RDL and wether it is "authentic" to the Byzantine Ruthenian musical and liturgical tradition. Maybe having cantors from both countries together would solve that problem in a hurry as well! It would be mighty difficult for one cantor to tell the other cantors their translations are wrong--when that's the tongue they grew up speaking! And yes, it goes both ways. A Ukrainian seminarian learning English would have a great aid in a teacher from America. And an American seminarian learning from someone in Uzhorod or Mukacevo would certainly be learning from the source itself! Seems like a win-win situation for everyone--especially the people sitting in the pews. And don't we count for something?

One point I need to comment on--earlier in this thread it was stated that we don't really have a shortage of priests, we have a shortage of parishioners. It was stated that yes, the average age of the priests is getting up there. But the statistic was given that not many churches can boast of having one priest for every 100 to 200 parishioners. The math may be accurate, but I think it is misleading. How many of those priests have that many parishioners in ONE parish? And how many priests have to hold down two or three or more parishes, in order to make up the stated numbers? It is misleading to say we don't have enough parishioners. With a smaller parish having thirty to fifty people in one town, and other parish with sixty to eighty people in another town, and a third parish having fifty to sixty people in that town--with one priest driving 25 to 30 miles from one parish to another---that puts a whole new light on that statistic. And many parish priests can't just stay in their parishes and take care of souls--they must travel to the Eparchy for meetings, go to conferences, hold workshops, travel to three or four hospitals (each one an hour to two hours apart) to see the sick parishioners, etc. These priests are putting five thousand miles on their cars almost every month! But yet we say they have only 100 to 200 souls to care for. Not really!

As I read some of the later posts in this thread, it seems that some people might not have read the entire thread, from the beginning. Please do. Some of your questions might have been answered earlier.

Slava Na V'iki

Tim

Re: Ruthenian Seminarians transferred to USA/Canada? [Re: Rusyn31] #242456 07/01/07 05:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
A Simple Sinner Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Too afraid that the culture may be kept, (e.g. Rusyn, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, etc. Keeping the traditional Slavonic Liturgy instead of this nonsense Revised Divine Liturgy)?

Bear in mind Slavonic is not the tradition for many of us. It was all English by the time I came unto the picture (in my thirties)... Before that it was in Hungarian at my parish.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3