The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (rome1453, 1 invisible), 67 guests, and 121 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,958
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 12 13
Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church #245676 07/19/07 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
L
Lawrence Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217

The New Curial Document On The Nature Of The Church has got me wondering what the official positions of the various Orthodox Churches are concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I've read a number of individual opinions on the subject but they didn't answer all the questions I had.

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Lawrence] #245741 07/19/07 10:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Bear in mind that the Orthodox Church does not have a "magisterium" to produce authoritative answers to such questions. Theologians and hierarchs may express opinions, and even act upon those opinions, but that does not necessarily bind other theologians and hierarchs.

Fr. Serge

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #245754 07/19/07 11:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
L
Lawrence Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217

Thanks for your reply Fr Serge. Actually, in the simplest terms what I was trying to get at is the question, "If a particular RC doctrine is held to be erroneous by an Orthodox Church, would the RC Church be required to abandon that teaching before their could be reunion, and if not, why".

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Lawrence] #245769 07/20/07 02:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
E
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by Lawrence
"If a particular RC doctrine is held to be erroneous by an Orthodox Church, would the RC Church be required to abandon that teaching before their could be reunion, and if not, why".
Lawrence,

This is a very good question, and I'm sure many people have opinions on this matter. The real answer, however, is that there will only be reunion when our focus becomes more and more the person of Christ. We can argue about dogmatic formulas till the cows come home, but it is only in Christ and through the Holy Spirit that we can really know what these formulas mean.

This may sound extreme to some, but the whole principle of apophatic theology is that God is beyond any concept we can have of Him. I think that once we really accept this principle, everything starts falling into place. The dogmatic formulas point the way for us, but let's not forget that knowing about God is not the same as knowing God.

Rather than look at our differences as "irreconcilable" and the obstacles to our reunion "unsurmountable," we need to come to desire what God desires--and that is our unity. He alone is the source of that unity ("...one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God, Who is Father of all..."), and it is His Holy Spirit Who will guide us as to what teachings--if any--will have to be abandoned.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Epiphanius] #246024 07/21/07 06:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,461
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,461
Quote
let's not forget that knowing about God is not the same as knowing God

Deacon Richard:

Something I've said before and is worth repeating again and again smile so I will:

Quote
let's not forget that knowing about God is not the same as knowing God


I like the Old English meaning of the word "know" in this context: "to have an intimate relationship with"--the exact kind of relationship that the KJV and Douai-Rheims use when they describe the marital relationship, e.g. " . . . he knew his wife." smile

Sometimes we forget that when we start to argue about theological formulas. AS one of my spiritual fathers once observed, there are so many great theologians who can cite so many things, but they themselves have no faith whatsoever. Let's pray for the gift of faith in the Faith until we get it.

In Christ,

BOB

Last edited by theophan; 07/21/07 06:22 PM.
Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: theophan] #246163 07/23/07 01:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 510
R
Ray Kaliss Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by theophan
AS one of my spiritual fathers once observed, there are so many great theologians who can cite so many things, but they themselves have no faith whatsoever.
BOB


I can agree with that. No charity. No love. They churn out books which are useless to read.

-ray

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Epiphanius] #246165 07/23/07 01:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 510
R
Ray Kaliss Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by Epiphanius
The real answer, however,

etc..

Peace,
Deacon Richard


Dear Deacon Richard ...

Now if we had YOU on the commissions - unity would be rushing along to fulfillment.

It has seemed to me that if each of us holds church unity in our hearts - we have done all we can and the churches are united in us. Just as Christ wanted.

The bishops and theologians who keep us separated - they will have to answer to God.

But as long as we individual hold unity in our hearts - we have already answered Jesus.

Just as you say ... charity is the only thing which can mend the human side of the churches. Charity and understanding first and Providence will take care of the rest.

-ray

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Ray Kaliss] #246169 07/23/07 02:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
L
Lawrence Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217

Still, this isn't answering the question. Catholics and Orthodox may be on the same page on many theological issues, but their are still some major differences. When I hear people suggest we just follow the Nike slogan "Just Do It" in regards to reunion, I have to ask in black and white terms, would a particular Patriarch say "You have to conform to our position on X,Y and Z" or would another say "You follow your particular doctrines in your churches, and we'll do the same in ours, but we'll still be in communion".

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Lawrence] #246179 07/23/07 06:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 490
Ghosty Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by Lawrence

Still, this isn't answering the question. Catholics and Orthodox may be on the same page on many theological issues, but their are still some major differences. When I hear people suggest we just follow the Nike slogan "Just Do It" in regards to reunion, I have to ask in black and white terms, would a particular Patriarch say "You have to conform to our position on X,Y and Z" or would another say "You follow your particular doctrines in your churches, and we'll do the same in ours, but we'll still be in communion".


I think it has less to do with "Just do it, and it will be real", and more to do with a rectitude of the heart. Since we are indeed the Body of Christ, Sacramentally speaking, if our hearts were rectified then other things would begin to fall into place.

So it's not that there aren't real differences, but that those differences remain unresolved because of our interior disposition and will in some way.

Peace and God bless!

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Ghosty] #246209 07/23/07 12:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
In my opinion the only insurmountable difference between the two sides is to do with the Pope: is his office a good one but man-made like any other rank of the divinely instituted episcopate (like other patriarchs, or metropolitans or archbishops) for the orderly running of the church? (IMO, if you filter out anti-Westernism and convert secondhand Protestant anti-popery, that's an authentic Orthodox position.) Or is he by Jesus' institution his Vicar on earth, whose office has the gift of infallibility on faith and morals and who has universal ordinary jurisdiction (so why bishops then?), which IIRC is required Roman (and Byzantine etc.) Catholic belief. (Which Orthodoxy has never officially ruled on but it's universally understood that this is not what Orthodoxy teaches.)

Other than that IMO they are more or less the same religion, even with the filioque, created vs uncreated grace and all that. Rome sees the Orthodox not really as a separate faith but as an 11th-century version of... itself! IOW Orthodoxy IS [Roman] Catholicism in C11 form.

That said, AFAIK there really is no official, doctrinal Orthodox position on any non-Orthodox church. Do not judge another man's servant etc. Other than: Orthodoxy teaches it is the one true church, infallible with guaranteed (by faith) real sacraments and so on. Opinion on other churches varies a lot! From a view of Rome mirroring Rome's of them (as the Pope recently repeated: a real church with grace-filled sacraments but lacking communion in the one true church) to the one found online among some xenophobic ethnic Orthodox and ex-Protestant converts as summed up by Kallistos (Ware), in which the Pope and a 'witch doctor' are in the same darkness, beyond the pale!

I think most Orthodox - ethnic, born ones - don't spend a lot of time speculating whether other churches have grace.

But a fairly common view is that other churches' sacraments are not the same as Orthodox ones, that is, not in themselves sacraments, but God works where he will (he created the church and its sacraments but is not limited to them) and of course can and does give some kind of grace (not necessarily the same as sacramental grace) to Christians who truly seek him, from the Anglican woman vicar down the lane to the hard-shell Baptists and the Pentecostalists having a tent revival.

A view I think one may (but not necessarily) find from everybody from the strictest Athonite monk to the multi-degreed renowned Orthodox scholar in the West.

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: Ghosty] #246318 07/24/07 03:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16
KatholikosMercy Offline
.
Junior Member
Offline
.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Ghosty
It's not that there aren't real differences, but that those differences remain unresolved because of our interior disposition and will in some way.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

and I think these scriptures tell why.

"If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.


I feel our differences remain unresolved because the interior disposition lacking on the whole is Love.




Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: KatholikosMercy] #246324 07/24/07 03:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
Originally Posted by KatholikosMercy
Originally Posted by Ghosty
It's not that there aren't real differences, but that those differences remain unresolved because of our interior disposition and will in some way.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

and I think these scriptures tell why.

"If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.


I feel our differences remain unresolved because the interior disposition lacking on the whole is Love.





How will love resolve the issues? Let's take a concrete issue. How will a change of interior disposition resolve the question of the nature of the papacy? One side thinks that the post-schism papacy is a doctrinal innovation and should be renounced. The other side thinks that it is a necessary development of doctrine and an inherent part of the Catholic faith. Both sides are sincere and both sides love one another. At this point, what more can be done?

Joe

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy] #246331 07/24/07 04:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16
KatholikosMercy Offline
.
Junior Member
Offline
.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy

How will love resolve the issues?

Both sides are sincere and both sides love one another. At this point, what more can be done?



Perfect Love. If that statement that both sides are sincere was true there could be no schism.

Tit 3:9 But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: KatholikosMercy] #246333 07/24/07 05:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
Originally Posted by KatholikosMercy
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy

How will love resolve the issues?

Both sides are sincere and both sides love one another. At this point, what more can be done?



Perfect Love. If that statement that both sides are sincere was true there could be no schism.

Tit 3:9 But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.


So, it doesn't really matter what we believe about papal authority? Should it matter about any doctrine? Wouldn't a unitarian say to us that we are being schismatic and judgmental because we won't accept them?

I think that calls for unity are just fine. But, there can be no unity that is not based on truth. The office of the papacy and its role in the Church is a matter of doctrine and there can be no unity until we are in agreement. One side has kept the apostolic faith and the other side has departed from it, at least on this issue. Either the Orthodox are wrong or the RC is wrong and until this is resolved, there can be no unity.

Joe

Re: Official Orthodox Positions On The RC Church [Re: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy] #246334 07/24/07 05:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,833
Apotheoun Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,833
The Latins and the Orthodox sincerely disagree with each other on a lot of issues, and the disagreements are enough to prevent the restoration of communion.

Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 12 13

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3