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Tim, you're the kind of guy I like to see in church. I don't think men realize just how wonderful they look when they dress up a little.

Annie, I wonder if the Serbian women are like the Greek women in that because of the bad relationship Serbs have had with Muslims they don't want to wear anything that remotely resembles Muslim dress.
No one considers the Theotokos who almost always veiled,albeit differently in the Roman and Orthodox churches, but rather muslims! Romans portray her sometimes with some hair showing or even unveiled but wearing a crown. But when she's veiled it seems to be in the style of jewish women of the time period.

Orthodox icons paint her with her head completely covered (under cap included)and, really, if her scarf covered the neck it would resemble a muslim hijab! Why is she painted in this manner in countries that do not wish to resemble muslim dress in any way, shape or form?


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Tim -
Your a good Dad. One of my fondest childhood memories was the day my Dad taught me to tie a tie.

And for the record, I've had the blue jean/work boot rush to Church on a holy day day. It ain't pretty.
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Thank you both for the compliments--but my parents are the ones who deserve credit for making sure I was dressed properly and not allowing my childish desires to override respect for a debt to Jesus that we can never repay!

I teach at the University level and it is amazing at how poorly kids dress. I don't expect three piece suits, but I'm amazed that occasionally we get a guy or girl who dresses nicely and how much the other students compliment them and even start flirting right away. It was the same person who wore jeans and sweats a couple of weeks ago, but now that they are wearing a dress or a pair of chino's and a button dress shirt (minus the tie), people think they are far more attractive.

Yet no one puts two and two together! Nice dress and cleanliness equals flirtation and dates, not to mention a whole new level of respect! Go figure. When my nine year old son gets older and starts to get interested in girls, the first bit of advice I'll give him is--hygiene and clean, nice, dress clothes! And I know the girls will come flocking. Oh, and no baseball caps inside a building--hats are for outside. And never wear a baseball cap backwards or sideways.


Tim


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Originally Posted by tjm199
When my nine year old son gets older and starts to get interested in girls, the first bit of advice I'll give him is--hygiene and clean, nice, dress clothes! And I know the girls will come flocking.

Tim



We have tried telling our teenager this over and over! But does he believe us, no! frown So we get resentment because we make him dress nicely. I hope when he gets older he will understand why we did.

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Quote

Several Serbian women I know are quick to point out that they don't like covering their heads and they like to wear dress trousers. They go to their church or to the OCA church, and they dress neatly and modestly in church, but you won't catch them praying with the Russians.


Dear Annie,

I have a bit of a problem with this. It's not that I have anything against women in trousers, but I believe they should have either a tunic covering their backside, or a long jacket. I feel the same about girls and women wearing flimsy fabrics, even though I realize that on some the clothes might not be suggestive. On others though they are, and one can't differentiate what one should wear and what the other can wear.

I think the priests should give church goers some guidelines as to what someone should be wearing....of course I'm asking a lot of them, considering what they have to put up with in so many of our parishes.

I recall many decades ago, how a teenager in my family, decided to wear a pants suit at Easter. The suit was something new at the time, and quite fashionable. She wore a jacket over it, so that there was nothing suggestive about it. Being devout, she made sure she was well covered but it scandalized the older women. Of course they were not scandalized at the other girls and women with the extreme mini skirts of the era. Had this teenager wore a mini skirt, it would have been perfectly okay...which comes to my point. Certain guide lines should be given such as covering one's backside, the thickness or thiness of fabrics, and the amount of leg that can be shown...as well as sleeveless and provacative dresses.

God Bless,

Zenovia

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Originally Posted by tjm199
Refunis--you hit the nail on the head and one of my biggest pet peeves! When I go to church, I wear at least a pair of dress pants, a dress shirt and a tie. Sometimes a suit, but at least a tie. With dress shoes that I polish before I leave the house. I am so tired of going to church and seeing people in shorts, ripped and dirty t-shirts, sandals and torn jeans! It would have to be a bad day for me to show up in jeans. And my nine year old son is not allowed to dress in anything less than a pair of dress pants, dress shirt (or a polo shirt) and dress shoes. Tennis shoes are OUT!

What is worse is when I see altar servers wearing torn sneakers, sandals and jeans that have no heels. Clearly visible under their robes. I promise you, my son will never dress that way when he is a server! My mom and dad never permitted my brothers or I to wear jeans to church, even in the 1970's. I certainly won't do it now! How about a little respect for all that God has done for us?

Tim



There was a time when I thought much like this. I was raised in a Protestant, evangelical tradition where many people emphasized wearing your "Sunday best". However, my thought has changed a great deal about this, largely due to the two passages below from Holy Scripture. I believe the disposition of one's heart and mind has far more to do with respect and love for God than does clothing-and that clothing does not necessarily reflect that inner disposition. There is a family at my Church with six young children-all under the age of 11. The mother does not have a job outside of the home, so they are a single-income family. They typically wear jeans, and while sometimes the father wears slacks instead, I've never seen him wear a tie, and certainly not a suit-he may not even own a suit and I doubt, given their financial situation, that they can afford to make buying one a priority. However, he and his wife are among the most reverent people in the parish and they go to great efforts to teach their young children the same love of God they have. On the other hand, I've also known some people who are always nicely dressed who are so lacking in anything remotely resembling Christian charity that I find it impossible to believe that they have any love or respect for God.

Ryan

1 Samuel 16:6-7

And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD's anointed is before him. But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

James 2:2-4

For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; and ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, “Sit thou here in a good place”; and say to the poor, “Stand thou there,” or “sit here under my footstool”; are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

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Ryan, you have a point, but I guess because I come from a culture where even the poor are expected to wear their Sunday best in the House of God, I see little excuse for jeans in church unless one is third world poverty poor. One can always get to a thrift store and get clothes other than jeans. It isn't necessary to wear a different outfit every Sunday,one is enough especially if the budget is tight.Jeans and shorts strike me as the result of sloth or ignorance. It isn't about being fancy just dressing appropiately.
That said, of course, I don't assume the well dressed parishioners are automatically more virtuous than anyone else, nor do I disregard the virtuousness of those wearing jeans or even shorts to church.

I admit that this is such a strong cultural bias for me that I wouldn't even consider going to church with a date wearing jeans.To me that is on par with going out with a guy who wears a wifebeater as his primary shirt. Not gonna happen no matter how nice he is.

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Indigo:

Well, according to you, I suppose my wife and I are either extremely lazy, ignorant, or both. I'll attempt not to take offense-though it won't be easy.

Ryan

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Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Indigo:

Well, according to you, I suppose my wife and I are either extremely lazy, ignorant, or both. I'll attempt not to take offense-though it won't be easy.

Ryan


Shlomo Ryan,

I understand what Athanasius is saying. In my parish back in Minneapolis Perioduet sharbel would have in the bulletins that if you come to Church no shorts, no jeans, or any clothing that suggest that Church is a casual affair.

Poosh BaShlomo,
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The conclusion that the wearing of jeans suggests that Church is a casual affair is not an objective fact; rather, it is an opinion, that is, in my opinion, culturally conditioned. If I were in a situation where I believed that wearing jeans would offend the sensibilities of the community, I would not wear jeans, in spite of the fact that those are sensibilities I do not share. However, at my parish, there are a number of people who wear jeans on a regular basis. My wife and I do as well, though not always. To us, there is nothing casual about the DL. When we wear jeans, we are no less "serious" about DL than when we wear slacks.

Ryan

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This is such a heated issue, and I would have to say that there are no clear cut rights or wrongs, as many different factors play into these conversations: traditions, cultures, sub-cultures, climates, ethnicities, age, etc.

I will relay to you what I see here in Athens, Greece and throughout Greece.

On Sunday mornings, the middle aged to older women generally wear skirts, however, there are also younger and middle aged women who wear pants. Middle aged to older men generally wear some kind of button down shirt and trouser.

It is very hot here, and suntans and little clothing are generally the norm on the streets--thus, arms are generally not covered and no one, not even in monasteries, winces. Also, because of the heat, no one winces at sandals, and sandals here are quite pretty and fashionable looking ones. Although not the majority, there are teens and young adults scattered in the congregations, both on Sunday and at Vespers/Salutation service, which are held nightly in the larger churches for the Dormition fast. They come in jeans, earrings, t-shirts, etc. No one seems to mind. The mere fact that they come in of their own volition, the mere fact that their dress says that they are part of the youth culture yet they still want to meet our Lord in their souls, and that they believe in Him, and in their Church speaks volumes. I rejoice when I see them, and I rejoice when I see them just as they are, because it tells me that they were not forced to come by their parents, or out of a sense of any other type of obligation or pretense. Ofcourse, this is a different culture, and it is acceptable here...ever since the newsworthy day about twenty years ago, when Archbishop Christodoulos publicly welcomed all youth to come to church in their jeans! (--for that was the time here when the Church was losing their generation completely).

Yesterday, I made a day pilgrimage to the island of Aegina to visit the Church and the monastery of St. Nektarios.
There was a busload of tourist pilgrims there from Russia...there were a few adult chaperones with headscarves, but most were teens...beautiful fresh faced, attractive, fair haired Russian teens and the females did not wear headscarves..It was just so wonderful to see these young people in Church, and the nuns don't mind as long as everyone tries to look decent. They offer a sign to that effect (of decency) at the entrance, and skirts for those who may need them. Every once in a while someone slips through the cracks--you may see a man in shorts which the sign does not allow, or a woman in something more scanty, but no one chases them out as long as their demeanor is respectful...As this has now become a tourist island as well, there are bound to be some tourists who are not prepared by their dress for the treasure they have come upon in this pilgrimage site...such as an independent young Russian couple I saw there, as well as an independent young Greek couple.

Having contemplated this thread, and having immersed myself into a different cultural mindset, I would have to say that, although I always understood the point of the posters who say it is nice to try to dress nicely at Church, that I also understand the point of our younger posters like Ryan/Athanasius the Lesser.

From what I can ascertain, I think that worldwide Christianity is at a point where the two mindsets will always intermingle, and that neither should condemn the other, but rejoice in the communion of worshipping together.

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I fail to see how denim is any more casual or less virtuous than, say corduroy. Modesty and decency seem to be more important than the type of fabric worn. I don't wear jeans to church unless it's a daily mass and I am there to meet the organ repairman after mass and expect to get a bit dirty. However, where does this idea of certain fabrics being more appropriate or holy come from?

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Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

For those of us who are Middle Eastern our belief goes back to how one should dress for synagogue or Temple. To wear "work" clothes to worship to us shows that one is just going through the motions and one does not truly respect God nor ones self. Now if one is wearing demim that is purely for worship, and not for play and other "everyday" activities then that is different, but if one wears their street clothes to Church, then that is disrespectful.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
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I was brought up during war years - you were lucky to have more than one set of clothes - so the custom of having Sunday best died out - you grew out of them before they were worn out.

Since then I think most families here just have decent clothes that will go anywhere [ excluding teenagers of course ]

My own personal feeling is that you should wear neat , decent, clean clothes to Church.

This of course is where your own view of modesty comes in. Me - I think I dress appropriately - sleeves to at least my elbow , no plunging neckline and skirt a respectable length.

This is my normal style anyway.

Head covering - well it depends where I am - normally no - but if I'm visiting anywhere new I ask .

Now teenagers - that can be a different thing - they do enjoy showing their own style ideas - problems can arise - and negotiation has to take place in the family situation. As we all know - parents are old 'fuddie duddies ' and know nothing biggrin

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Originally Posted by Rufinus
Tim -
Your a good Dad. One of my fondest childhood memories was the day my Dad taught me to tie a tie.

And for the record, I've had the blue jean/work boot rush to Church on a holy day day. It ain't pretty.
Rufinus


My girlfriend had to teach me how to tie a tie, is that pathetic or what? frown

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