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The pride and arrogance of the Moscow Patriarchate is astounding. This jurisdictionalism is a major reason I have never become Orthodox despite my strong pro-Orthodox leanings. The papacy has its issues, and it's far from perfect. My experience with Orthodoxy has been that ethnicity is more important than catholicity.

The latter is why I remain an Eastern Catholic.

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Are any of us surprised? He's been saying the same thing for months now. He wants to be the leader because he has more people under him. The fact that it is a long established and central custom to designate leadership based on length of service (he who has been around the longest is the most senior) doesn't seem to phase him.

I wonder if he has concelebrating priests assemble based on how many parishioners they have instead of how long they've been priests. Or perhaps his acolytes don't ring the Holy Table by experience but he counts their children or their grades?

He's mad and possibly jealous and would do things differently with Rome if he were EP, and this is his way of dealing with it. It is like arguing over who gets dad's guns or mom's brooch while they are alive and in the room. The EP just had another murder plot against him foiled while Turkey's laws are almost eradicating the patriarchate, and another patriarch is using his energy to take swipes at the man. That is low in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
The pride and arrogance of the Moscow Patriarchate is astounding. This jurisdictionalism is a major reason I have never become Orthodox despite my strong pro-Orthodox leanings. The papacy has its issues, and it's far from perfect. My experience with Orthodoxy has been that ethnicity is more important than catholicity.

The latter is why I remain an Eastern Catholic.


John I am a Greek Catholic papist. No two ways about it. I believe in Petrine authority in a fashion that has led to me being alternately excioriated by various parties as "Latinized" "Ultra-montaine" "A Latin in Greek Robes" and "neo-Cath". (Whatever the hell that means, sticks and stones....)

But I say in all earnestness and with respect, don't let this by itself be a turn key issue. Don't let the reason you ARE Catholic be based too solidly on that fact that you ARE NOT "that"... Whatever "that" is.

More to the point, I am not a relatavist. I have to assent to something (in this case namely the papacy) rather than be Catholic because I reject something...


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It is precisely a question of affirming something (the unity of the Church and the importance of the Roman Primacy in maintaining that unity) rather than rejecting anything. The Church has a direct mandate to preach the Gospel to all nations, so we do not reject anyone's ethnic identity.

When things work out imperfectly, which happens frequently in practice, we must remember that the Church is (among other things) a theandric mystery and that while God is perfect, men are not. God acts, but He does not act on our schedule (soemtimes that means waiting, and sometimes that means shock and the complaint that soemthing is happening "too fast").

Fr. Serge

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I do not see anything all that controversial in the statement issued by the Moscow Patriarchate.

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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
This squabbling among the local Orthodox Churches is why I am an Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.


This squabbling among the local Orthodox Churches has always been the norm as far back as Constantine I of eternal memory is why I am Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern catholic.

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Surely there are better ways to decide what Church one cares to belong to than by reckoning the antiquity of its squabbles!

My preferred standard is the beauty of its worship.

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Surely there are better ways to decide what Church one cares to belong to than by reckoning the antiquity of its squabbles!

My preferred standard is the beauty of its worship.

Fr. Serge


Father bless,

I wholeheartedly agree: Beauty of worship and, I will add, truth of teachings.

Joe

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Will the Church do itself in long before the Muslims overtake them? This reminds me of the infighting between teh churches when the early days of Islam saw the Middle East for the taking.

The Patriarch of COnstantinople looks like a sitting duck - by his own kind.

Still watching how this will all turn out. Another case study for the students of religion. I am sure ANY fighting amongst dirty laundry will provide ample opportunities for the church's enemies to us against them.



Dear Eddie,

I tend to agree with you. The Church that will be overcome, as well as the Church that is being overcome, (considering the flight of refugees from the Middle East), is the Orthodox church. Knowing this, I would assume any logical person would immediately want union with the RCC, as well as with all Christianity. And yet, it is not so. confused If all the theological differences were solved, as well as an agreement as to the position of the Papacy, and one were to ask many Orthodox, if they want unity of the faiths, they would say NO. There would always be an excuse. frown What they don't realize is that by not uniting with the RCC, they are making many of the other religions happy. I do not mean only the Muslims, for let's not forget that the Jerusalem Patriarch owns most of the land in Israel. Certainly Israel cannot be happy over that. Nothing frightens these faiths more, than unity with that bulwark of Christianity: The Vatican.

Of course, Russia is now exerting herself, believing that she will soon become that bulwark, believing that God is on her side. Also many Orthodox in this country believe that an American Patriarch, can also become that Bulwark. So instead of unity of Christianity, what they want is an admission of all members of the RCC that they were wrong and the Orthodox were right. A return to the Orthodox ritual, a re-baptism and so on and so forth. That way they could say they were the one's that were right all along and pat themselves on the back. For shame! blush

With that mind set, a repeat of Constantinople is only a matter of time. cry

God Bless,

Zenovia

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Originally Posted by Zenovia
Quote


Will the Church do itself in long before the Muslims overtake them? This reminds me of the infighting between teh churches when the early days of Islam saw the Middle East for the taking.

The Patriarch of COnstantinople looks like a sitting duck - by his own kind.

Still watching how this will all turn out. Another case study for the students of religion. I am sure ANY fighting amongst dirty laundry will provide ample opportunities for the church's enemies to us against them.



Dear Eddie,

I tend to agree with you. The Church that will be overcome, as well as the Church that is being overcome, (considering the flight of refugees from the Middle East), is the Orthodox church. Knowing this, I would assume any logical person would immediately want union with the RCC, as well as with all Christianity. And yet, it is not so. confused If all the theological differences were solved, as well as an agreement as to the position of the Papacy, and one were to ask many Orthodox, if they want unity of the faiths, they would say NO. There would always be an excuse. frown What they don't realize is that by not uniting with the RCC, they are making many of the other religions happy. I do not mean only the Muslims, for let's not forget that the Jerusalem Patriarch owns most of the land in Israel. Certainly Israel cannot be happy over that. Nothing frightens these faiths more, than unity with that bulwark of Christianity: The Vatican.

Of course, Russia is now exerting herself, believing that she will soon become that bulwark, believing that God is on her side. Also many Orthodox in this country believe that an American Patriarch, can also become that Bulwark. So instead of unity of Christianity, what they want is an admission of all members of the RCC that they were wrong and the Orthodox were right. A return to the Orthodox ritual, a re-baptism and so on and so forth. That way they could say they were the one's that were right all along and pat themselves on the back. For shame! blush

With that mind set, a repeat of Constantinople is only a matter of time. cry

God Bless,

Zenovia


Reading this post has made me realize that I have nothing to say anymore.

Joe

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Actually, I have one thing to say and that is that it is quite disappointing to find out that we, the Orthodox, are at fault for this schism and that it is just our stubbornness and wanting to pat ourselves on the back that is the cause of our refusal to submit to the rulership of Rome. Well, I've been thinking about these problems for too long and reading too many posts here. That's all I have to say.

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Quote

Actually, I have one thing to say and that is that it is quite disappointing to find out that we, the Orthodox, are at fault for this schism and that it is just our stubbornness and wanting to pat ourselves on the back that is the cause of our refusal to submit to the rulership of Rome. Well, I've been thinking about these problems for too long and reading too many posts here. That's all I have to say.


Dear Joe,

Nobody said to submit to Rome, nor did anyone say that we were at fault. What I stated in my post was that we should want unity and do everything in our power to foster it. It's a matter of our heart.

Pope John Paul II bowed down, humbled himself and asked for forgivness for the past actions of members of his Church. He was willing to accept and listen to all kinds of insults in order to start the process of the Churches re-uniting, and he even asked, "what do you people want me to be? " while he was being called a two horned monster. In other words, he showed himself a 'Servant of Servants'.

What if the Orthodox Patriarchs and bishops were to do the same thing? What if instead of looking at the splinter in the other persons eye, they were to look at the log in their own? Then I think we would be on the road to unity.

This does not mean all the theological problems will be solved, but we certainly would be on the way of doing so...even the position of the papacy.

God Bless,

Zenovia

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Dear Joe - that which is not true cannot be genuinely beautiful!

Fr. Serge

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Dear Joe - me again! It is not a question of saying that the Orthodox are exclusively to blame for the schism; there is plenty of blame to go around. It is a question of saying that we all are in need of repentance and forgiveness - and we are all in need of a sharp, realistic look at the current situation.

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Originally Posted by Zenovia
Quote


Will the Church do itself in long before the Muslims overtake them? This reminds me of the infighting between teh churches when the early days of Islam saw the Middle East for the taking.

The Patriarch of COnstantinople looks like a sitting duck - by his own kind.

Still watching how this will all turn out. Another case study for the students of religion. I am sure ANY fighting amongst dirty laundry will provide ample opportunities for the church's enemies to us against them.



Dear Eddie,

I tend to agree with you. The Church that will be overcome, as well as the Church that is being overcome, (considering the flight of refugees from the Middle East), is the Orthodox church. Knowing this, I would assume any logical person would immediately want union with the RCC, as well as with all Christianity. And yet, it is not so. confused If all the theological differences were solved, as well as an agreement as to the position of the Papacy, and one were to ask many Orthodox, if they want unity of the faiths, they would say NO. There would always be an excuse. frown What they don't realize is that by not uniting with the RCC, they are making many of the other religions happy. I do not mean only the Muslims, for let's not forget that the Jerusalem Patriarch owns most of the land in Israel. Certainly Israel cannot be happy over that. Nothing frightens these faiths more, than unity with that bulwark of Christianity: The Vatican.

Of course, Russia is now exerting herself, believing that she will soon become that bulwark, believing that God is on her side. Also many Orthodox in this country believe that an American Patriarch, can also become that Bulwark. So instead of unity of Christianity, what they want is an admission of all members of the RCC that they were wrong and the Orthodox were right. A return to the Orthodox ritual, a re-baptism and so on and so forth. That way they could say they were the one's that were right all along and pat themselves on the back. For shame! blush

With that mind set, a repeat of Constantinople is only a matter of time. cry

God Bless,

Zenovia


Reading this post has made me realize that I have nothing to say anymore.

Joe





I have something to say.

It is good for Christians from different organizations and beliefs to work with each other on certain common goals.

It is --to put it mildly-- unacceptable for Christians to give up their identity, autonomy and beliefs for the sake of a false unity. This has been tried --and it has failed-- over the second millennium.

Yes, Russia is asserting itself on all fronts, including religiously. Yes, many Orthodox insist on blaming everyone but themselves for their woes, with the ultimate scape-goat being the Fourth Crusade. Yes, this can lead to defeats from within when facing enemies without.

On the other hand, people can unite for common causes without uniting their religions. World War II is an example. I think the effort to curtail terrorism could be another.

And as for Islam . . . dare I say it aloud at this Forum? . . . it is not the boogey-man; it is not a monolithic monster waiting to devour us. There are many different Islamic peoples (just like there are many different Christian peoples). Some are fanatics, and others are very open to co-operation on common goals. And some are us: Muslim Americans, living and serving loyally in America and being good neighbors (including, literally, down the road from me).

-- John


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