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Hello,

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Of course, what purpose would the evil one have in producing visions of that nature? I do not know


Ah, another assuption I do not share.

I do not believe the Medjugorje event is of divine origin, but I do not believe it is of satanic origin either.

This area in Croacia is particularly poor and the "visions" have brought in a lot of money from the tourists (err... pilgrims?)

It doesn't take God or the devil, just a very clever business-person.

Shalom,
Memo

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Of course, what purpose would the evil one have in producing visions of that nature? I do not know



Ah, another assuption I do not share.

I do not believe the Medjugorje event is of divine origin, but I do not believe it is of satanic origin either.

This area in Croatia is particularly poor and the "visions" have brought in a lot of money from the tourists (err... pilgrims?)

It doesn't take God or the devil, just a very clever business-person.


Dear Memo,

That I do not accept. My, my, my! You have a suspicious nature. And here I thought I was bad. frown

Actually though, it may be a cultural thing. Not what is occuring in Croatia, but your suspicions as to a secular motive for the apparition. I recall about fifty years ago, when a crying icon in Greece turned out to be a fake, that the Greek newspapers had a hey day about how we were being fooled over the three icons that were crying in Long Island. They were not fake, as the news reporters can attest to. And well! The people flocking there, did help them pay off their enormous debt. wink

Actually, after reading the comments from our Lady, I tend to believe that they are actually apparitions given to the children for their spiritual welfare, and the spiritual welfare of others. She keeps telling the children to pray. Basically, nothing else! Now what could be more beneficial spiritually than that?

Also, the island of Aegina in Greece was in very bad straights before Saint Nektarios went there and started a monastery. Actually, it hadn't even rained for years, and he not only brought them rain, but the constant growth of pilgrims has given them probably the most prosperous monastery in Greece, as well as an enormous Cathedral. So you're wrong about that. God can help an area prosper when He and if He so wills it. smile

I think what happened is that I was swayed by opinions of others, such as Catholic bishops, etc., that did not accept the apparitions. I usually try not to be swayed...but I was. I am also of the belief that our Lord, through His over abundant Love and Mercy, will reach people in ways that they will accept and understand. So what to an Orthodox or Protestant may not be acceptable, such as our Theotokos giving spiritual advice, can be acceptable to a member of the RCC.

God Bless,

Zenovia

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Originally Posted by Zenovia
I tend to believe that they are actually apparitions given to the children for their spiritual welfare, and the spiritual welfare of others. She keeps telling the children to pray. Basically, nothing else! Now what could be more beneficial spiritually than that?



Zenovia,

I agree with you.

-- John

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Originally Posted by Memo Rodriguez
Hello,

Originally Posted by Michael McD

So, the Bishop did eventually approve the apparitions, and there have been various subsequent ecclesiastical investigations, all of which ended up attesting the genuine nature of the apparition. The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been celebrated in the Catholic Church for centuries now, on Dec. 12.


Pope John Paul The Great elevated the celebration to the rank of Feast for the entire American continent. It is the National Patronal Feast and therefore a Solemnity in Mexico.

Originally Posted by Michael McD

The image of Our Lady on the tilma is one which in many ways instructed the Indians that there was a Mother of God (the serra where she appeared was dedicated by the Indians to a "goddess" under that title), but that the God they associated with her was false. This led eventually to about 10 million conversions to the Catholic faith over about 10 years.


That is simplifying things a little too much. The "original" account of the apparition is a narrative called "Nican Mopohua" and in it, Our Lady never claims that the Aztec gods were false.

The Aztecs were actually developing monotheism when all this happened. The current theology at the time was that there was One True God called Teotl and that the various gods of the Aztec pantheon were different manifestations of Teotl.

In the translations of the Nican Mopohua, there is usually an emphasis in the words of Our Lady identifying herself as "The Mother of the Very True God, the Giver of Life". However, what is usually translated as "the Giver of Life" is the Nahuatl word Ipalnemohuani, which is not only the name of one of the gods of the pantheon, but also the first of a list of names of gods Our Lady is claiming to be the Mother of. The Nahuatl text reads:

Maxicmatti, ma huel yuh ye in moyollo, noxocoyouh, ca nehuatl in nicenquizca cemicac Ichpochtli Sancta Maria, in Inantzin in huel nelli Teotl Dios, in Ipalnemohuani, in Teyocoyani, in Tloque Nahuaque, in Ilhuicahua, in Tlalticpaque.

Which should be translated as:

Please know, and put in your heart, my little son, the most beloved, that I am the perfect, Ever Virgin Saint Mary, and I have the privilege to be the Mother of the Very True God, of Ipalnemohuani (The Giver of Life), of Teyocoyani (The Creator of People), of Tloque Nahuaque (The Owner of what is near and what is far), of Ilhuicahua Tlaltipaque (The Lord of Heaven and Earth).

The list and the use of the actual names of the Aztec gods would look like a convalidation that the Aztecs were on the right theological path, which parallels the way St. Paul talked to the Greeks of Our Lord as the "Unknown god" of their own pantheon.

In general, the whole Nican Mopohua presents Christianity, not as a replacement for the Aztec religion, but as the true fulfilment of the Aztecs' thirst for spiritual life.

The Nican Mopohua suggest the mass conversion of the natives happened only when their own scribes examined the image and found it of divine origin. They understood their time had passed, that their mission was now given to the Christian bishop. They simply accepted the revelation and obeyed the message.

Originally Posted by Michael McD

Of even more interest to us moderns, perhaps, is the fact that the tilma itself has survived since the time of the apparition, now about 470 years. It is made up of vegetable fiber, and normally by now would be reduced to dust. Scientists have verified in recent times that there has been no deterioration; and no human preservation.


Not only no human preservation. The image now is framed and in air-tight glass, but for several decades, it was completly exposed and within the reach of the hands of the faithful, who rarely missed the chance to touch it.

The image also survived a bomb detonation during the time of the Cristero war. An iron crucifix, or what remains of it, that used to be right next to it can still be seen at the basilica.

Its survival to our days is indeed, remarkable.


Shalom,
Memo




Memo,

All of this is a very interesting post. Can you recommend a good, solid book on the subject of Our Lady of Guadalupe? Thank you.

-- John

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Indigo wrote (regarding the reported appariions in Litmanova:
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Oh, I was wrong they're Roman Catholic.


Indigo, you were correct the first time, the girls are Greek Catholic; one is now in the convent, the other married with children. It was a Greek Catholic bishop, Bishop Hirka who who named the members of the investigation, so it was members of his flock who were involved.

The website below is the best English language info that I have run across for Litmanova.
http://mrosa.szm.sk/341998/angl/litmkon.htm

As I've said elsewhere in this forum, the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in Church Slavonic at the Litmanova parish. The parish priest celebrates Liturgy on the 1st Sunday of the month for the pilgrims and a new chapel is presently being constructed. The original plan was for a modernist chapel; fortunately it was changed to our traditional style.

The reported apparitions of Litmanova are NOT approved, but neither are they rejected. It was determined that there was nothing contrary to the faith. The Medjugorje investigation has also the same status. If anyone has any documentation to the contrary they should present it. The Bishop of Mostar is NOT the spokesman for the Medjugorje investigation; it is the Bosnia-Herzogovia bishops collectively who are charged with the investigation. Any claim to the contrary is nasty misinformation, unless something has changed in the past few months.

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Hi,

Quote
All of this is a very interesting post. Can you recommend a good, solid book on the subject of Our Lady of Guadalupe?


Unfortunately, I do not know what is "out there" in English.

The Basilica's official website has the Nican Mopohua (properly but blandly) translated to English:

http://basilicadeguadalupe.org.mx/apariciones/Nican%20Mopohua/Nican%20Mopohua%20ingles.htm

I do not know if you are aware of this, but for the Office of Readings (our present-day nocturn vigil liturgical prayer), there are two readings. One from Scripture and another one from the writings of a Saint, a document of the Church, etc.

For the Feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the second reading comes from the Nican Mopohua.

I am pretty sure there are modern studies, especially the scientific studies performed on the image and the cloth itself, which should be available in English.

But again, by far, the best stuff is available only in Spanish.

Shalom,
Memo


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Hello,

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That I do not accept.


Dully noted.

Quote

Actually though, it may be a cultural thing.


Maybe, but we (I mean Hispanics) do not have much fame for being skeptics.

Maybe it is just me.

I find it hard to believe that this multi-million dollar industry came about in mere years without it being intentional.

Shalom,
Memo

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The most authoritative source on-line as to the status of Marian apparitions is that maintained by the Marian Center at the U of Dayton

It's site is here

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by indigo

Do the Orthodox accept the sighting of the Theotokos in Zeitoun, Egypt over a Coptic Church in the 1960's?


Although there are Eastern Orthodox faithful with a private devotion to Our Lady of Zeitoun, I am unaware of any official stance by the Eastern Orthodox Church on the apparition, nor would I expect any. It is uncommon for any of the Churches to officially react to apparitions claimed by any other of the apostolic Churches.

As to Zeitoun, the affirmative Catholic reaction has been a notable exception. Likewise, the Syriac Orthodox have demonstrated an interest as regards Our Lady of Soufanieh, but an early positive Antiochian Orthodox reaction to the events at Soufanieh subsequently disappeared, quietly.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by Memo Rodriguez
For the record, there is no tradition in the Latin Church for fasting on Saturdays.

Strictly speaking, all Fridays are days of abstinence, although in most places, this abstinence is only observed during Lent.

Other than that, fasting is only prescribed for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, although it is suggested to continue Good Friday's fast through Holy Saturday until the Easter Vigil.

And it shouldn't surprise anybody that Our Lady would be glorified the most in Russia. The Byzantine devotion to the Mother of God is second to none, including the Latin tradition.

Shalom,
Memo


Amen!

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Memo,

Why don't you put your translation, notes and commentary, on a blog (they're free to use) or website for all to read. I found your commentary not just interesting, but beautiful.

The Aztec names, and above all their meanings, and the background behind them; the historical matter of their native religion already tending toward montheism; etc. This is all first class scholarly information that everyone interested in Our Lady of Guadalupe would love to be able to ponder and meditate on.

Also, is there a scholarly edition of the Nican Mopohua in Spanish out there for purchasing?

Best,
Michael

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Dear Friends,

I beg to differ!

The contemporary RC practice does not include fasting on Saturdays, but when two days of fasting per week was the norm, the Wednesday Fast was moved to Saturday by Rome - for which Rome was chastised by the East as having broken with Tradition.

In addition, the WEEKLY Friday Fast, throughout the year, has NEVER been abrogated by Rome - and I don't know where Latin Catholics get the idea that it was.

Fasting is an important part of our struggle over ourselves. It is a true spiritual medicine and no doctor (i.e. bishops) may refuse to apply needed spiritual medicine for the benefit of our souls.

Perhaps with the return of the Extraordinary Roman Rite, a renewed evaluation of the place of fasting will be had in the West.

My point was simply that Medjugorje and the Apparition prescribed TWO days of fasting per week and that no reference was made to the Saturday fast as formerly appointed.

My point about Russia was that IF these apparitions were purely the result of the imagination of the seers, what reason would they have to reference Russia here and not Yugoslavia?

For me, this is an indication of possible authenticity of the apparations.

(Now Ebed Melech, where are you with your "Amen?" smile )

Alex

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Alex,

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In addition, the WEEKLY Friday Fast, throughout the year, has NEVER been abrogated by Rome - and I don't know where Latin Catholics get the idea that it was.


Friday remains a penitential day in the Code of Canon Law, but the episcopal conferences were given permission in the 1960s to further specify that, and in the USA, they made abstinence from meat optional in the sense that it remains one of the penitential practices that one can perform, but there are various others (more prayer, works of mercy, etc.).

At least in the USA, the spirit of fasting and penance is somewhat more "lite" than would appear from the CIC. smile

As I think that the restoration of the Extraordinary Form is not to include the restoration of everything as it was in 1962, I don't think it will lead to more official emphasis on days of fast and fast/abstinence of itself, but one can hope that the more serious tone that may "overcome" the Church, will encourage a more penitential spirit among us.

Michael

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