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Originally Posted by Yuhannon
Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

For those of us who are Middle Eastern our belief goes back to how one should dress for synagogue or Temple. To wear "work" clothes to worship to us shows that one is just going through the motions and one does not truly respect God nor ones self. Now if one is wearing demim that is purely for worship, and not for play and other "everyday" activities then that is different, but if one wears their street clothes to Church, then that is disrespectful.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon,

This is exactly how the Greeks were and how the Greeks always thought, and how Greek Americans such as myself who have grown up with the same old fashioned values you mention, have always thought. I always dress on Sundays as have my husband and children.

However, times have changed across Europe, and rather than have our churches graced by nothing more than little old ladies, which seemed to be the direction it was going, (despite operating churches on practically every corner), the Archbishop of Athens, Christodoulos, had the enlightened foresight to tell young people to just COME into Church--wherever they are and however they are dressed at the moment.

Another thing that has changed in recent years is the long beard, the kalimavki/stove top hat, and long hair (tied into a bun) that priests always donned here. It seems that young men were not able to get married with that particular look in these more modern times, and thus, were not happy with that particular rule and tradition. Again, for a while, the Church here seemed doomed to have only older white haired men within its clerical ranks...atleast at face value.

So the Archbishop, again in an enlightened move, said that they can have clipped beards and short hair, and now I see many, many young married priests (not a single white hair on them, so they must be young-LOL) walking around the city in rasso, but with short hair, short beard and no kalimavki. Infact, I saw a young priest with his wife and child just the other day at the supermarket parking lot, getting into their car. Now for Greece, *THAT* is progress! smile

In Christ,
Alice


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Jeans--that's a word that seems to be sparking lots of thought and comments. When I mentioned not wearing jeans to church I meant the kind that hang down to yout butt and have been worn away to nothing but threads on the heels. Clean jeans are acceptable in my opinion. I have my own standards and would not expect others to follow them. But I will compromise with my son when he becomes a teenager, as any parents knows---pick your battles. I have worn clean jeans to church once in the last several years--and it was because of time and health problems. But they were clean, neat and not full of holes. Its a sign of respect. I would rather see someone in church dressed in just about anything rather than not in church in a three piece suit.

Please don't take offense at this, but there does seem to me a correlation between the type of dress one uses at Church and how one views Divine Liturgy. Again, I don't expect three piece suits or dresses to the ankles and wrists. But what's wrong with a clean shirt or a clean pair of pants? Even jeans.

Tim

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Originally Posted by Alice
So the Archbishop, again in an enlightened move, said that they can have clipped beards and short hair, and now I see many, many young married priests (not a single white hair on them, so they must be young-LOL) walking around the city in rasso, but with short hair, short beard and no kalimavki. Infact, I saw a young priest with his wife and child just the other day at the supermarket parking lot, getting into their car. Now for Greece, *THAT* is progress! smile

Perhaps moving off-topic a bit....... but what would people say about a clergyman with no beard, i.e. short hair, clean shaven, but wearing a cassock and kalimvaki? wink I've seen it before here in the US, but I can't imagine it in Greece.

Markos

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The jeans thing is cultural and I come from a culture that condones it. That's the way I see the world, I have no problem with it, and if others see it differently, cool, but in my world it's a no-no and that's not going to change for me.
I have the right to see that way just as y'all and Archbishops etc have the right to see jeans or shorts, tatoos, slinky dresses etc as being appropiate.
Maybe this isn't your particular cultural bias, but I'm willing to bet every poster here also carries a few cultural biases that will never change whether they move to South Africa, Tahiti or Europe...and why should they? I'm willing to agree to disagree on this one, my friends. Moving on...

In this culture it seems a beardless priest wouldn't raise eyes because it doesn't mean anything to Americans, but in Greece and possibly other countries it does seem to be important. But are priestly beards part of Church tradition or biblically inspired? What about men with long hair, is that frowned upon? I ask because with the headcoverings some defend them on biblical ground but clearly, most cultures have moved a way from it. At the same time, according to Paul, it seems that men (I don't know about Church tradition)are not to wear long hair, but they do. It seems that headcoverings, bearded priests, and longhaired men are all cultural issues now.

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Oh, and what is a kalimvaki?

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Here you go smile Hats [nikitatailor.com]

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Thanks for the visual explanation. Who wears red kamilavki? I've seen priests wearing the black, but then I've not seen the number of byzantine catholic or orthodox priests that y'all have. Not that it's important, but they look cool! I know priests who where their rassos aliturgically but not the kamilavki.

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I've found more proof backing up Zenovia's contention that Christian women used to veil completely.St.Jerome states in his letter(Ancille Domini:Demetrias)that when pious women absolutely must leave the home (he really preferred they stay home) their necks,throats, and breasts should be covered as well as their faces. "leaving scarcely an opening for one eye-and that only from the need to find her way."
Makes you wonder if the Muslim women's veil was copied from the Christians!

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I've found more proof backing up Zenovia's contention that Christian women used to veil completely.St.Jerome states in his letter(Ancille Domini:Demetrias)that when pious women absolutely must leave the home (he really preferred they stay home) their necks,throats, and breasts should be covered as well as their faces. "leaving scarcely an opening for one eye-and that only from the need to find her way."
Makes you wonder if the Muslim women's ve

Dear Indigo,

Actually, these things probably pre-date Christianity in that part of the world. The reason I realized it, was because I saw an ancient Greek statue from Asia Minor, (now called Turkey), probably dating four centuries or more before Christ. Had it been later than that, it would have been a classical Greek statue or a Hellenic Greek one. The girl's face was partially covered. The covering hung from one side, and was drawn to the other side, leaning on the shoulder. It did not come from the top of the head down.

God Bless,

Zenovia

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Perhaps moving off-topic a bit....... but what would people say about a clergyman with no beard, i.e. short hair, clean shaven, but wearing a cassock and kalimvaki? wink

Not at all unheard off. Look at photos of the Ukrainian Catholic bishops in the old days, how about some Romanian, Antiochian, etc. bishops? I once saw a video on TV of a Ukrainian Greek Cath young monk at an altar with no beard, short hair, and a kamilavka.

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O.k., I can't resist...I have been surfing in and out of this thread for some time and I have something to say...

Today I visited a beautiful Melkite parish. Wonderful. First time for me, and it won't be the last. I absolutely LOVED IT. Now for the topic. Half wore head wraps, half did not. I did not, simply because I don't normally do it and because I was not sure what the custom of this parish was. I don't have a problem if someone wants to do that, that is fine. What pestered me about it was a young lady who sat directly in front of me during the liturgy and fussed with it the entire time, moving around, rocking back and forth with her kid, nursing, ect... It kept slipping off, it was BRIGHT, and it really irritated me because it was distracting. I suppose that totally defeats the purpose of it if I am not mistaken. Nursing is fine. Rocking is fine. Fixing ones head gear is fine. Leaving and coming back ten times is fine too. Our Lord does not mind. But perhaps the motion in the back row would have been more charitable to weak minds like me. Sorry to vent, but if the whole point is "modesty", we should be modest inwardly and exteriourly in our postures and clothing, whether you want to wear a head wrap or not. Her hair would not have distracted me or anyone else. All the fuss did. The issue goes deeper than a little mantilla or a scarf. Modesty of the heart, the inward man, the attitude toward ones neighbor, must be and interior reality. Quite frankly, that is the real issue. If you've got that together, the other stuff falls into place. You are going to dress decently in order to present yourself before the Lord. That is what it's all about I think.

Jesus had long hair by the way. Gee, maybe we should start a thread for that one. laugh

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Dear Michelle,

The little ones are so unpredictable! A mother can hardly prepare for all possibilities, and this is certain if there are many children. Today for instance we had a baby spitting up, and a tired/restless toddler, and an older boy with a tummy ache! Everyone else in the family was o.k. We were in and out like a revolving door! I always feel terrible for the distractions and minimize these wherever I can. It's worse with a head covering because the little ones are always knocking it out of place. When I wore a veil, I switched to a hat for that reason. Now I attend the DL at a Ukrainian Rite church and there are almost no headcoverings. So, I do not wear one in order to conform.

Have you ever tried to find a seat in the back row? I think that the back row is the first row that fills up. Maybe if you sit more closely to the front it will minimize this problem.

Anyway, perhaps the lady was just conforming to custom and juggling the duties of her state in life, her vocation as a mother, as best as she was able while fulfilling the desire of her heart to be there on Sunday.

I think that your comment about modesty of heart, and the attitude of charity regarding ones neighbour really does get to the center of the matter. You are right on there!


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What beautiful vestments on that site!

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Understandable. Been there, done that. My point was about the headcovering. If it will just end up as one more distraction to ones neighbor then it is defeating the purpose entirely. wink

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