The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Annlouise, Taylor, Randy Danielson, TAFrazer, PNCC Random Guy
5,770 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 79 guests, and 27 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,056
Posts414,079
Members5,770
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,949
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,949
Originally Posted by Yuhannon
Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

For those of us who are Middle Eastern our belief goes back to how one should dress for synagogue or Temple. To wear "work" clothes to worship to us shows that one is just going through the motions and one does not truly respect God nor ones self. Now if one is wearing demim that is purely for worship, and not for play and other "everyday" activities then that is different, but if one wears their street clothes to Church, then that is disrespectful.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon


Dear Yuhannon,

This is exactly how the Greeks were and how the Greeks always thought, and how Greek Americans such as myself who have grown up with the same old fashioned values you mention, have always thought. I always dress on Sundays as have my husband and children.

However, times have changed across Europe, and rather than have our churches graced by nothing more than little old ladies, which seemed to be the direction it was going, (despite operating churches on practically every corner), the Archbishop of Athens, Christodoulos, had the enlightened foresight to tell young people to just COME into Church--wherever they are and however they are dressed at the moment.

Another thing that has changed in recent years is the long beard, the kalimavki/stove top hat, and long hair (tied into a bun) that priests always donned here. It seems that young men were not able to get married with that particular look in these more modern times, and thus, were not happy with that particular rule and tradition. Again, for a while, the Church here seemed doomed to have only older white haired men within its clerical ranks...atleast at face value.

So the Archbishop, again in an enlightened move, said that they can have clipped beards and short hair, and now I see many, many young married priests (not a single white hair on them, so they must be young-LOL) walking around the city in rasso, but with short hair, short beard and no kalimavki. Infact, I saw a young priest with his wife and child just the other day at the supermarket parking lot, getting into their car. Now for Greece, *THAT* is progress! smile

In Christ,
Alice


Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560
Jeans--that's a word that seems to be sparking lots of thought and comments. When I mentioned not wearing jeans to church I meant the kind that hang down to yout butt and have been worn away to nothing but threads on the heels. Clean jeans are acceptable in my opinion. I have my own standards and would not expect others to follow them. But I will compromise with my son when he becomes a teenager, as any parents knows---pick your battles. I have worn clean jeans to church once in the last several years--and it was because of time and health problems. But they were clean, neat and not full of holes. Its a sign of respect. I would rather see someone in church dressed in just about anything rather than not in church in a three piece suit.

Please don't take offense at this, but there does seem to me a correlation between the type of dress one uses at Church and how one views Divine Liturgy. Again, I don't expect three piece suits or dresses to the ankles and wrists. But what's wrong with a clean shirt or a clean pair of pants? Even jeans.

Tim

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 506
Originally Posted by Alice

So the Archbishop, again in an enlightened move, said that they can have clipped beards and short hair, and now I see many, many young married priests (not a single white hair on them, so they must be young-LOL) walking around the city in rasso, but with short hair, short beard and no kalimavki. Infact, I saw a young priest with his wife and child just the other day at the supermarket parking lot, getting into their car. Now for Greece, *THAT* is progress! smile


Perhaps moving off-topic a bit....... but what would people say about a clergyman with no beard, i.e. short hair, clean shaven, but wearing a cassock and kalimvaki? wink I've seen it before here in the US, but I can't imagine it in Greece.

Markos

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
The jeans thing is cultural and I come from a culture that condones it. That's the way I see the world, I have no problem with it, and if others see it differently, cool, but in my world it's a no-no and that's not going to change for me.
I have the right to see that way just as y'all and Archbishops etc have the right to see jeans or shorts, tatoos, slinky dresses etc as being appropiate.
Maybe this isn't your particular cultural bias, but I'm willing to bet every poster here also carries a few cultural biases that will never change whether they move to South Africa, Tahiti or Europe...and why should they? I'm willing to agree to disagree on this one, my friends. Moving on...

In this culture it seems a beardless priest wouldn't raise eyes because it doesn't mean anything to Americans, but in Greece and possibly other countries it does seem to be important. But are priestly beards part of Church tradition or biblically inspired? What about men with long hair, is that frowned upon? I ask because with the headcoverings some defend them on biblical ground but clearly, most cultures have moved a way from it. At the same time, according to Paul, it seems that men (I don't know about Church tradition)are not to wear long hair, but they do. It seems that headcoverings, bearded priests, and longhaired men are all cultural issues now.

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
Oh, and what is a kalimvaki?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,578
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,578
Here you go smile Hats

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
Thanks for the visual explanation. Who wears red kamilavki? I've seen priests wearing the black, but then I've not seen the number of byzantine catholic or orthodox priests that y'all have. Not that it's important, but they look cool! I know priests who where their rassos aliturgically but not the kamilavki.

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 706
I've found more proof backing up Zenovia's contention that Christian women used to veil completely.St.Jerome states in his letter(Ancille Domini:Demetrias)that when pious women absolutely must leave the home (he really preferred they stay home) their necks,throats, and breasts should be covered as well as their faces. "leaving scarcely an opening for one eye-and that only from the need to find her way."
Makes you wonder if the Muslim women's veil was copied from the Christians!

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Quote

I've found more proof backing up Zenovia's contention that Christian women used to veil completely.St.Jerome states in his letter(Ancille Domini:Demetrias)that when pious women absolutely must leave the home (he really preferred they stay home) their necks,throats, and breasts should be covered as well as their faces. "leaving scarcely an opening for one eye-and that only from the need to find her way."
Makes you wonder if the Muslim women's ve


Dear Indigo,

Actually, these things probably pre-date Christianity in that part of the world. The reason I realized it, was because I saw an ancient Greek statue from Asia Minor, (now called Turkey), probably dating four centuries or more before Christ. Had it been later than that, it would have been a classical Greek statue or a Hellenic Greek one. The girl's face was partially covered. The covering hung from one side, and was drawn to the other side, leaning on the shoulder. It did not come from the top of the head down.

God Bless,

Zenovia

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
Quote
Perhaps moving off-topic a bit....... but what would people say about a clergyman with no beard, i.e. short hair, clean shaven, but wearing a cassock and kalimvaki? wink


Not at all unheard off. Look at photos of the Ukrainian Catholic bishops in the old days, how about some Romanian, Antiochian, etc. bishops? I once saw a video on TV of a Ukrainian Greek Cath young monk at an altar with no beard, short hair, and a kamilavka.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 18
M
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 18
O.k., I can't resist...I have been surfing in and out of this thread for some time and I have something to say...

Today I visited a beautiful Melkite parish. Wonderful. First time for me, and it won't be the last. I absolutely LOVED IT. Now for the topic. Half wore head wraps, half did not. I did not, simply because I don't normally do it and because I was not sure what the custom of this parish was. I don't have a problem if someone wants to do that, that is fine. What pestered me about it was a young lady who sat directly in front of me during the liturgy and fussed with it the entire time, moving around, rocking back and forth with her kid, nursing, ect... It kept slipping off, it was BRIGHT, and it really irritated me because it was distracting. I suppose that totally defeats the purpose of it if I am not mistaken. Nursing is fine. Rocking is fine. Fixing ones head gear is fine. Leaving and coming back ten times is fine too. Our Lord does not mind. But perhaps the motion in the back row would have been more charitable to weak minds like me. Sorry to vent, but if the whole point is "modesty", we should be modest inwardly and exteriourly in our postures and clothing, whether you want to wear a head wrap or not. Her hair would not have distracted me or anyone else. All the fuss did. The issue goes deeper than a little mantilla or a scarf. Modesty of the heart, the inward man, the attitude toward ones neighbor, must be and interior reality. Quite frankly, that is the real issue. If you've got that together, the other stuff falls into place. You are going to dress decently in order to present yourself before the Lord. That is what it's all about I think.

Jesus had long hair by the way. Gee, maybe we should start a thread for that one. laugh

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
Dear Michelle,

The little ones are so unpredictable! A mother can hardly prepare for all possibilities, and this is certain if there are many children. Today for instance we had a baby spitting up, and a tired/restless toddler, and an older boy with a tummy ache! Everyone else in the family was o.k. We were in and out like a revolving door! I always feel terrible for the distractions and minimize these wherever I can. It's worse with a head covering because the little ones are always knocking it out of place. When I wore a veil, I switched to a hat for that reason. Now I attend the DL at a Ukrainian Rite church and there are almost no headcoverings. So, I do not wear one in order to conform.

Have you ever tried to find a seat in the back row? I think that the back row is the first row that fills up. Maybe if you sit more closely to the front it will minimize this problem.

Anyway, perhaps the lady was just conforming to custom and juggling the duties of her state in life, her vocation as a mother, as best as she was able while fulfilling the desire of her heart to be there on Sunday.

I think that your comment about modesty of heart, and the attitude of charity regarding ones neighbour really does get to the center of the matter. You are right on there!


Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 102
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 102
What beautiful vestments on that site!

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 18
M
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 18
Understandable. Been there, done that. My point was about the headcovering. If it will just end up as one more distraction to ones neighbor then it is defeating the purpose entirely. wink

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5