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Here [sergesblog.blogspot.com] is my take on the man's views.

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Young Fogey:

I think we can indeed pray one out of hell, as the Orthodox Confession of St. Peter Mohila states. That does not mean that every one who goes there leaves.

I believe as you say in your article, we can hope that no one is there, but we are obligated by faith to affirm the reality of hell.

I would say we can legitmately hope that every one will be saved, but we cannot affirm postively that everyone will be saved, since that would deny free will.


- Lance

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It would seem that what counts is that the toasty ones are open to our prayers and show some sign of repentance when the opportunity is presented to them. Our prayers probably help open the doors of opportunity in some way.

I'm just supposing and if I'm on shaky theological ground please let me know.

I was mightily impressed with Blessed(right?) Seraphim Rose's writings. The only thing is they're pretty doomsday like that website death to the world http://www.deathtotheworld.com/.
Perhaps what Blessed Seraphim said is all true, but it's a bit hard to take sometimes.

His assessment of Nihilism,the charismatic movement and UFO phenomena are awesome. The "Orthodoxy is the only path to salvation" line is a bit much though I admire his steadfastness and line of reasoning.

How have others benefitted from Blessed Seraphim Rose's teachings?

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Has anyone read his magazine The Orthodox Word? What do you think of it?

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I was pretty sure we taught that once a person gets to hell that is it. There is no more chances for repentance and those there would not repent anyway because they have resisted it up to that point and made their decision final. Does not the Bible say that those are there facing eternal consequences? What would make anybody think that someone could be in hell and then leave for any reason and is this something that Orthodox and Catholics think or just pockets of each? I was pretty sure Catholics believe in he finality of hell, and if there is any state where a person can suffer and then rise to eternal life it would be purgatory. We are free to believe somehow that it is possible that all men may somehow be saved, but not from leaving hell and going to heaven.
Hell is defined by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph 1033):

'We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." '

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Thanks for your replies.

If you can pray somebody out of it then by definition it isn't gehenna.

Again, believing one can do so is as appealing but illogical as outright universalism.

As to who believes in what, searching east, you answered your own question regarding Rome by quoting their catechism.

As for Orthodoxy, AFAIK none of this is defined doctrine, because in the East nobody developed a following by denying prayer for the dead, just like there's no defined doctrine there defending true belief about the Eucharist.

Prayer for the dead is in that church's services as is opinion about the toll-houses (a form of the particular judgement not the intermediate state) and Orthodoxy leaves it at that.

That said...

It seems from writings like Fr Seraphim's that the Orthodox have pockets of believers who deny an eternal hell for some people. Not formally heretical according to Orthodoxy - see above - but worrisome!

I've only seen The Orthodox Word in passing for the past 20 years but Not of This World/Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works [amazon.com] (the extensive revision of NOTW is, as I wrote, a condensed compilation of it and everything else Fr Seraphim wrote.

Death to the World was/is a more recent version of the same idea.

The apocalypticism, like in certain kinds of Protestantism (Left Behind), can be taken too far, but like with Roman Catholic traditionalism I like very much the orthodoxy, fervency, devout observance and sense of urgency about some of these things that Fr Seraphim and his cultus (in the true sense - not 'cult') had/have.

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as far as praying someone out of Hell (as a place of eternal and everlasting punishment) I say no. as far as praying for the repose of souls and for GOD's mercy upon them, I do it all the time. the thing about Hell is that while we may each have a list of who should be roasting like a campfire wienie, the great thing is that none of us know who is in Hell, and perhaps no one knows if Hell, in the context we are discussing, has any one there at all. that is not not our place to make these decisions. we should trust the souls of the dearly departed to the wideness of Christ's mercy. THAT is our place. many years ago after the death of Princess Diana (eternal rest and memory), a friend of mine consigned her to Hell. I said what I said here, and that even the Pope would not not do such a thing. the Holy father is more quick to consign people (saints) to Heaven, and I will let it go at that.
Much Love,
Jonn

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Jonn, I agree entirely.

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Originally Posted by JonnNightwatcher
as far as praying someone out of Hell (as a place of eternal and everlasting punishment) I say no. as far as praying for the repose of souls and for GOD's mercy upon them, I do it all the time. the thing about Hell is that while we may each have a list of who should be roasting like a campfire wienie, the great thing is that none of us know who is in Hell, and perhaps no one knows if Hell, in the context we are discussing, has any one there at all. that is not not our place to make these decisions. we should trust the souls of the dearly departed to the wideness of Christ's mercy. THAT is our place. many years ago after the death of Princess Diana (eternal rest and memory), a friend of mine consigned her to Hell. I said what I said here, and that even the Pope would not not do such a thing. the Holy father is more quick to consign people (saints) to Heaven, and I will let it go at that.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear John,

The above was a *brilliant* post! (I love that British adjective, because it encompasses all positive and good descriptions in one neat package wink )

As for Princess Diana, I think that your friend should have said a simple 'Lord have mercy on her soul' instead of putting himself in the position of Supreme Judge. Her expansive heart and genuine compassion for others, as well as her many acts of mercy, were something which most of us cannot even come close to.
I admire her greatly for that, and whether she was a religious Christian or not, she exemplified, in those virtues, what Christianity is.

May our Lord have mercy on her soul, forgiving her all her sins.

(I feel bad that her 'memorials' do not include our Byzantine prayers for her soul)

Regards,
In Christ,
Alice




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