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#253382 - 09/20/07 07:15 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Krsto Offline
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Member

Registered: 04/30/06
Posts: 44
Loc: Montenegro
I am not against freedom of religion, but the majority faith should be respected. As far as I am concerned Orthodox Church in my country must have the special status. Roman catholics and Muslims should have the same rights as orthodox people, but all kinds of proselytism should be forbidden.

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#253400 - 09/20/07 12:24 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Krsto]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: Krsto
I am not against freedom of religion, but the majority faith should be respected. As far as I am concerned Orthodox Church in my country must have the special status. Roman catholics and Muslims should have the same rights as orthodox people, but all kinds of proselytism should be forbidden.


I appreciate your point of view, Krsto. It is blessedly free of the relativism that stands behind so many arguments to the contrary (except for the bit about "majority religion"). You would feel differently if the majority religion was Islam. Majority is no proof of truth. Islam is a false religion! Error has no rights, though all of us who make errors do.


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#253418 - 09/20/07 03:12 PM Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: JohnRussell]
Krsto Offline
BANNED
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Registered: 04/30/06
Posts: 44
Loc: Montenegro
I am speaking only about Orthodox countries.

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#253421 - 09/20/07 03:32 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Krsto]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: Krsto
I am speaking only about Orthodox countries.


I hoped you would say that! Is this because you believe that Orthodoxy alone is the true Church?

Again, I appreciate your refusal of relativism.

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#253431 - 09/20/07 05:30 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: JohnRussell]
robster Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Minneapolis, Minn. USA
Krsto,

Would you then be willing to agree that outside of Orthodox countries, Eastern Orthodox Christians should be forbidden to evangelize and proselytize in any way?

Regards,
Robster

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#253432 - 09/20/07 05:31 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: JohnRussell]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3364
Loc: Etc
I think I must chime in with a few things.

A fundamental right of every person should be to follow the dictates of their own conscience as they see fit. So not only does error have rights that are enshrined in the Constitution of our country, we all indeed have the right to error (however one wants to judge what error is or isn't). Theocracy has proved itself time and time again to be a fundamentally flawed way to organize societies, and the enforcement of religious edicts and orthodoxies through the combination of church and state has over and over led to massive human tragedies.

Proselytism is in essence a meaningless word now, and is basically used as a blanket phrase to give a negative connotation to evangelism. There is no essential difference between proselytism and evangelism, which means if one opposes proselytism, you essentially stand in opposition to the Christian Gospel narratives which espouse seeking believers wherever they may be found. There is of course the nasty tendency in Orthodox counties to view religion as a matter of national or ethnic association, and to view the government as arbiters of religious authority. This in essence has the double effect of turning Christianity in to a tribal affiliation instead of a supra cultural body of believers, and subverting the church to the state. This will over the long term continue to lead to the slow descent of the Orthodox Church to the status of cultural artifact. Russia is actually a good case in point on both issues, i.e. the suppression of religious freedom and the yoking of religion to nation and race. http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/UzzellProselytize.php

It's also worth noting that if the idea that a majority religion has the right to suppress the rights of other faiths to gain adherents, Catholics and Orthodox Christians in the United States today would have no right or ability to grow though anything but reproduction. The fact is Orthodox Christians can freely seek new adherents in the West, but make every attempt to close off the ability of other groups to do the same in their own countries. It's hypocrisy, and rather blatant to boot.

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#253439 - 09/20/07 07:01 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: AMM]
JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 2406
Loc: Georgia U.S.
Originally Posted By: AMM
I think I must chime in with a few things.

A fundamental right of every person should be to follow the dictates of their own conscience as they see fit. So not only does error have rights that are enshrined in the Constitution of our country, we all indeed have the right to error (however one wants to judge what error is or isn't). Theocracy has proved itself time and time again to be a fundamentally flawed way to organize societies, and the enforcement of religious edicts and orthodoxies through the combination of church and state has over and over led to massive human tragedies.

Proselytism is in essence a meaningless word now, and is basically used as a blanket phrase to give a negative connotation to evangelism. There is no essential difference between proselytism and evangelism, which means if one opposes proselytism, you essentially stand in opposition to the Christian Gospel narratives which espouse seeking believers wherever they may be found. There is of course the nasty tendency in Orthodox counties to view religion as a matter of national or ethnic association, and to view the government as arbiters of religious authority. This in essence has the double effect of turning Christianity in to a tribal affiliation instead of a supra cultural body of believers, and subverting the church to the state. This will over the long term continue to lead to the slow descent of the Orthodox Church to the status of cultural artifact. Russia is actually a good case in point on both issues, i.e. the suppression of religious freedom and the yoking of religion to nation and race. http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/UzzellProselytize.php

It's also worth noting that if the idea that a majority religion has the right to suppress the rights of other faiths to gain adherents, Catholics and Orthodox Christians in the United States today would have no right or ability to grow though anything but reproduction. The fact is Orthodox Christians can freely seek new adherents in the West, but make every attempt to close off the ability of other groups to do the same in their own countries. It's hypocrisy, and rather blatant to boot.


Yes I agree with you.

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#253452 - 09/20/07 08:18 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: AMM]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: AMM
So not only does error have rights that are enshrined in the Constitution of our country, we all indeed have the right to error (however one wants to judge what error is or isn't.
That which is enshrined in our Constitution is irrelelvant. Americanism is the enemy of Christianity.
Originally Posted By: AMM
Theocracy has proved itself time and time again to be a fundamentally flawed way to organize societies, and the enforcement of religious edicts and orthodoxies through the combination of church and state has over and over led to massive human tragedies.
Theocracy is flawed as opposed to what? Democracy? Democracy has yielded and continues to yield the worst tragedies of human history. How many murders and rapes take place in Mt. Athos and Vatican City? Some, surely, but here in America we rape and murder our children by the thousands every hour of every day.
Originally Posted By: AMM
The fact is Orthodox Christians can freely seek new adherents in the West, but make every attempt to close off the ability of other groups to do the same in their own countries. It's hypocrisy, and rather blatant to boot.
Again, it is only hypocrisy if they are acting contrary to their own professed beliefs. If they believe that only Orthodoxy has a right to evangelize, they are not being hypocritical (just wrong).


Edited by JohnRussell (09/20/07 08:25 PM)

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#253467 - 09/20/07 10:50 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Krsto]
Stephanos I Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 2514
Loc: West Coast
But not the right to convert to whatever religion one wishes in conscience to follow right? This is one of the fundamental rights of the human person. We might not like that they convert but we need to protect their freedom to do so and respect their decision also.
Stephanos I

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#253473 - 09/20/07 11:12 PM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Stephanos I]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: Stephanos I
But not the right to convert to whatever religion one wishes in conscience to follow right? This is one of the fundamental rights of the human person. We might not like that they convert but we need to protect their freedom to do so and respect their decision also.


How can the faithful "respect" apostasy? Are we to respect Judas's exercise of his freedom? Or Solomon's sacrifices to false gods? God certainly wasn't respectful of Solomon's way of "following his conscience." I don't mean to compare this to converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism or vise-versa (I'm not convinced that such is a "conversion" at all), but to "whatever religion one wishes."


Edited by JohnRussell (09/20/07 11:15 PM)

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#253485 - 09/21/07 01:21 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: JohnRussell]
MarkosC Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 517
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Originally Posted By: JohnRussell
How can the faithful "respect" apostasy? Are we to respect Judas's exercise of his freedom? Or Solomon's sacrifices to false gods?
[snip]


We respect/tolerate apostasy & al. for the same reason why God endowed us with free wills, and did not destroy Adam when he ate from the tree, and does not smite us down when we sin. (and all this despite the fact that He knew everything we will do from before eternity).

Quote:
The Holy Spirit leads the Church into all truth. He does not impose the truth upon it, not dictate its dogma without its consent: "It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" (Acts 15:28). If dogma were imposed, it would cease to be truth which frees and would be come a tyranny which kills. The Lord did not save Judas forcibly: "He has the power to win the disciple over, but He did not wish to do good by constraint, not drag anyone to Himself by force". Anything that exists outside of freedom is hell and death.

- Abbot Vasileios of the Stavronikita monastery, Hymn of Entry (St. Vladimir's Press, 1984),p.48-49)


Mods: if the quote veers too much on the side of copyright infringement, feel free to delete it. Come to think of it, this is definitely thread drift......




Edited by MarkosC (09/21/07 01:25 AM)

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#253486 - 09/21/07 01:25 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: MarkosC]
Father Anthony Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: New York
MarkosC,

Your references are fine the way you have credited them.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
_________________________
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai

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#253495 - 09/21/07 02:29 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Father Anthony]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3364
Loc: Etc
Quote:
Americanism is the enemy of Christianity.


I would take the term "Americanism" to be as pliable and meaningless in its connotations as the word proselytism.

Christendom is the real enemy of Christianity.

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#253498 - 09/21/07 03:12 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: MarkosC]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: MarkosC
We respect/tolerate apostasy & al. for the same reason why God endowed us with free wills, and did not destroy Adam when he ate from the tree, and does not smite us down when we sin. (and all this despite the fact that He knew everything we will do from before eternity).


Respect in the sense of toleration I accept and practice. Sometimes, incidentally, God does smite us down when we sin. But judgement and vengence belong to Him alone.


Edited by JohnRussell (09/21/07 03:18 AM)

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#253501 - 09/21/07 03:48 AM Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: AMM]
JohnRussell Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted By: AMM

I think it's nearly impossible to make a statement like any church is the "one true" church


Originally Posted By: AMM

There's no reason women shouldn't be priests.


Originally Posted By: AMM

Christendom is the real enemy of Christianity.


AMM,

As you are Error's ally, I suppose I'll tolerate you. You, but not error. You've rights. Error does not.

You set yourself at odds with the Holy Church, the Bride of Christ and His Mystical Body. Suffer me to simply contradict, in faith and charity.

There is one true Church.
There are good reasons that women cannot be priests.
Christendom is good for Christianity.

God be with you.

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