My OCA parish had a joint celebration vesperal liturgy with the Ukrainian Orthodox parish right around the corner from us last night, for the exaltation of the cross.

I was shocked twice. Once before communion, when the priest said "Holy gifts for holy people" The other came at the final blessing when we heard "For he is good and loves humanity."

I wonder if the RDL was borrowed from this? Can any other Ukrainian Orthodox here verify if this is in your books?

I am Ukrainian Orthodox of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada. First of all our parish church would never celebrate a vesperal liturgy and especially never with the OCA which is very Russian in Toronto. Although we get along very well with the ROCOR and there are families with members in both parishes. The OCA does participate in the Sunday of Orthodoxy along with other Orthodox jurisdictions in Toronto. Our hierarch is Archbishop of Toronto and Eastern Canada.


We do not celebrate in English although when I visited the Dauphin Ukrainian Festival out West I was told that in some parishes in Western Canada the Gospel, Espistle, Lord's Prayer and Sermon are in English and Ukrainian.
In my prayer book "Vira Faith", 3rd edition 1979, the citation you provided is not included.
So you can't blame us.

I agree with Miller, as I have never heard those phrases used in any English liturgical celebrations I have witnessed with the Ukrainian Orthodox.

I would also add that Bishop Tikhon of the OCA does not look kindly at "vesperal liturgies", so the consensus even amongst the OCA hierarchy is mixed.

but apparently things are okay the way they are.

There is no such thing as a "vesperal Liturgy" (a combination of Vespers and the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom) celebrated in parishes on the evenings of feast days... Vespers and the Liturgy of Saint Basil is celebrated only on Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday mornings, as well as at Christmas and Theophany when these fall on certain days. The other, corrupted "vesperal Liturgy" must never be celebrated.

I suppose that depends on your particular church and bishop:
http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit3.html

"...neither I nor any other ruling bishop of the Diocese of the West has authorized the serving of the Evening Vesperal Liturgy anywhere or anytime in the Diocese of the West."

From His Grace +Isaiah of Denver in Diocesan News For Clergy and Laity:

I don't think it is an 'obsession' to ask for accurate translations. We need, and want, translations that are careful, accurate, exact, faithful, and prayerful. Without interpolations, interpretations, abbreviations, or agendas.

If is 'obsession' then it is ironic that it is the same thing asked for by John Paul II in a sober and clear directive from Rome.

If it is 'obsession', then so be it. But it is not an unreasonable request.

Nick

Nicholas, if the liturgy was done "right" and there were only ten people on average there to participate in it, I think some people would be okay with that.

That to my mind is an obsession with liturgical correctness.

The good thing is you'll NEVER see this on Saturday evenings in the OCA.(BCC anyone?)

The good thing is you'll NEVER see this on Saturday evenings in the OCA.(BCC anyone?)

Nu, well word on the street is that this whole foul business that emanated from Cyril and Methodius will soon be a thing of the past. Lets just say a little bird told me! ;\)

Alexandr

emanated from Cyril and Methodius

Glory to Jesus Christ! Since this is my first post, I will introduce myself before offering my thoughts on the question related to liturgical translations of the Ukrainian Orthodox.

My name is Father Paisius McGrath and I'm a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA serving Sts. Peter and Paul Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Lyndora, PA and Protection of the Holy Virgin Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Arnold, PA. I'm a convert to Orthodoxy having grown up in the Mennonite Church.

Now as far as the questions of liturgical translations used in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. While many of our parishes do use the text for Divine Liturgy contained in the UOC-USA Prayer Book(3rd edition 2004), many continue to use the texts they had been using: given that our official texts were kept in Ukrainian for so long, many of our older parishes that desired English started using the translations from the OCA or texts translated into English by their priest. This will help to account for the differences in some of the words used. This situation has existed for a long time, and is slowly changing so that eventually the prayer is that all our parishes will use the Divine Liturgy text contained in our Prayer Book.

With that background to the questions put out there for your consideration, let us look at what the Prayer Book says about the questioned phrases. Our prayer gives the two phrases in question as " The Holy Gifts for the Holy"(p.167)just before Communion of the Clergy and " for He is Good and the Lover of all mankind"(p.176) at the Dismissal prayer.

I hope this helps.
Your servant in Christ;
Father Paisius McGrath

My OCA parish had a joint celebration vesperal liturgy with the Ukrainian Orthodox parish right around the corner from us last night, for the exaltation of the cross.

I was shocked twice. Once before communion, when the priest said "Holy gifts for holy people" The other came at the final blessing when we heard "For he is good and loves humanity."

I wonder if the RDL was borrowed from this? Can any other Ukrainian Orthodox here verify if this is in your books?

but just because we are human