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Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #253073
09/17/07 01:37 PM
09/17/07 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
So what is the Bishop supposed to do - slam the door in the faces of these people?

Fr. Serge


Honestly Father, more and more I think the official answer would be:

"No they should not slam the door... because there should be no door... because they should not exist in the first place so this question should not arise."

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: A Simple Sinner] #253089
09/17/07 03:21 PM
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This is all a political issue, with a sad veneer of religion as overlay. Both sides have dirty hands.

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: AMM] #253094
09/17/07 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AMM
This is all a political issue, with a sad veneer of religion as overlay. Both sides have dirty hands.


I disagree. The Catholics want to provide for their faithful both Roman and Greek. That means establishing parishes in regoins where there are Catholics. There is nothing dirty about that.

Last edited by Zan; 09/17/07 03:34 PM.
Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Zan] #253098
09/17/07 03:53 PM
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The current situation is the culmination of a process of political conflict with a religious component to it. Both sides have dirty hands as to the history that led up to all of this, and there remains a political dimension to the issue in both the Russian Federation and the former CIS.

The lack of respect for religious freedom in the Russian Federation is indeed deplorable.

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: AMM] #253171
09/18/07 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AMM
The current situation is the culmination of a process of political conflict with a religious component to it. Both sides have dirty hands as to the history that led up to all of this, and there remains a political dimension to the issue in both the Russian Federation and the former CIS.

The lack of respect for religious freedom in the Russian Federation is indeed deplorable.


No one - or at least not me - is citing a blameless party.

I am going to repeat that:

I am not saying that the faithful of either or any party has been free from doing wrong.

What I am saying is we don't deserve to be excortiated or accused of being the enemy or adversaary of Orthodoxy on Russian soil.

The people who seek the Catholic Faith in Russia may not have been from Orthodox families to begin with. They may not wish to be Orthodox. They may not have ever been from Christian families.

TO the point? I simply don't buy the idea that "The Catholics have invaded, the Catholics have invaded!" If that had been the goal, busloads of Ukrainian and Polish priests as well as 20-10 priests each from the top 20 largest religous orders/monastic communities, could have already been sent in as a "landing party". We haven't. All indications are, we are not going to.

If anything, in an effort to appease and keep relations strong, to give less excuse and honor demands made, we have left a whole lot of our faithful out in the cold. How many Russian Fed. citizens of (Greek Catholic) Ukrainian descent have their own priests and parishes?

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: A Simple Sinner] #253196
09/18/07 11:40 AM
09/18/07 11:40 AM
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This too shall pass. Alexei shall not be Patriarch forever and the Church can then get on with it.
I've always thought that since they accuse us of prosletyism maybe we should give them something to realy be concerned about.
Stephanos I

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: A Simple Sinner] #253197
09/18/07 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
If anything, in an effort to appease and keep relations strong, to give less excuse and honor demands made, we have left a whole lot of our faithful out in the cold.

I'm afraid the motivating factor behind all this is fear: the ROs are afraid of the RCs, and vice-versa. What I would like to offer as a suggestion, even though I'm aware that such a program would encounter numberous obstacles, is for the Pope to send a team of missionaries to Russia who would be completely subject to Patriarch Alexei, and would work in a collaborative effort with RO missionaries. The program for evangelization would be worked out beforehand and strictly adhered to, so as to avoid any potentially devastating faux pas. Most importantly, the focus would be on getting people to attend RO churches and practice the RO faith.

Not only would this serve to counter suspicions, but it would also bring about a much-needed sense of mutual cooperation. (Naturally, some allowance will need to be made for the few who will want to become Catholic--and are theoretically considered to be Orthodox already, as are all Russian citizens.)

Originally Posted by AMM
The lack of respect for religious freedom in the Russian Federation is indeed deplorable.

While I agree with this statement, I would like to remind everyone that before Vatican II, it was an acceptable opinion among Catholics that "error has no rights," and that the ideal situation for the Church was always to have the State enforce its discipline--even to the point of persecuting non-catholics and other heretics. Since the ROC regards itself as the One True Church, it should not be surprising that they hold such a position.

Let us remember that trust is something that has to be earned. I may consider myself comlpletely trustworthy, but if you do not, and I still want to gain your trust, I have to be willing to accept being treated as un-trustworthy until I have an opportunity to prove myself.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Epiphanius] #253199
09/18/07 12:32 PM
09/18/07 12:32 PM
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Surely the Russian Orthodox Church does not regard itself, exclusively, as the "one true Church" - she is, after all, in communion with most of the other Local Orthodox Churches.

The proposal for a group of Catholic missionaries under obedience to Patriarch Alexis II is well-intentioned, but could lead to more trouble.

Fr. Serge

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #253211
09/18/07 01:52 PM
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Most importantly, the focus would be on getting people to attend RO churches and practice the RO faith.


Why would Catholics try to convert the unevangelized to Russian Orthodoxy? Just because they live in a predominantly Russian Orthodox country, or because their grandparents or great-grandparents were Russian Orthodox. How scandalous that would be.

Alexis

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #253212
09/18/07 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The proposal for a group of Catholic missionaries under obedience to Patriarch Alexis II is well-intentioned, but could lead to more trouble.
Fr. Serge,

Undoubtedly, it could lead to more trouble, but let's consider what the alternatives are:
a.) do nothing at all sleep
b.) send missionaries to Russia without coordinating with the ROC shocked
c.) have some kind of limited cooperative effort (which might actually be more of a problem, due to the RO mistrust of the RCs) crazy

The point of having the missionaries subject to Patriarch Alexei is precisely to deal with the trust issue head on.

If anyone has something better to suggest, that's great. But re-hashing old arguments and whining about the way things are doesn't solve anything, either.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Epiphanius] #253222
09/18/07 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The proposal for a group of Catholic missionaries under obedience to Patriarch Alexis II is well-intentioned, but could lead to more trouble.
Fr. Serge,

Undoubtedly, it could lead to more trouble, but let's consider what the alternatives are:
a.) do nothing at all sleep
b.) send missionaries to Russia without coordinating with the ROC shocked
c.) have some kind of limited cooperative effort (which might actually be more of a problem, due to the RO mistrust of the RCs) crazy

The point of having the missionaries subject to Patriarch Alexei is precisely to deal with the trust issue head on.

If anyone has something better to suggest, that's great. But re-hashing old arguments and whining about the way things are doesn't solve anything, either.


Peace,
Deacon Richard


Which one of these 2 news items satisfies any of the options listed above?

I think that the resurgence of the UGCC is becoming the unmentioned purveyor of Catholic "proselytism" in ROC "canonical" jurisdiction(s)?

From our own Byzcath's archived latest news:

------------------------------------

Orthodox Archbishop Grateful for Aid

2007-08-29

KAZAN, Russia, AUG. 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The organization Aid to the Church in Need extended its helping hand during difficult times when our seminary was still in a very pitiable condition, said Orthodox Archbishop Anastazy.

Archbishop Anastazy of Kazan and Tatarstan expressed his thanks to the international Catholic charity, Aid to the Church in Need, for the "selfless help" it has given to the region's Orthodox Church since the end of communism.

Kazan, the capital of the Tatarstan, is some 470 miles east of Moscow; 60% of its population is Muslim, and only 5% are Christians.

Today, thanks to the "invaluable help" of the organization, the seminary has become a "strong spiritual school" with an outstanding academic staff that is technically well equipped, the archbishop said.

Archbishop Anastazy mentioned another sign of Catholic-Orthodox cooperation. He spoke of the icon of Our Lady of Kazan, returned to the Russian Orthodox Church in August 2004, by Pope John Paul II. The icon ended up in the Vatican during the communist era.

Orthodox and Catholic Christians now flock to the image, Archbishop Anastazy said.

He believes the much-revered icon has even greater importance because the late Pope returned it. Indeed, many come to visit it expressly for this reason, the archbishop explained.

ZE07082804 - 2007-08-28

--------------------------

Alexy II Honors Vatican Representative

2007-09-05

MOSCOW, SEPT. 4, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II has recognized the Vatican's representative in Russia for his efforts in establishing good relations between the two Churches.

Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia has awarded Archbishop Antonio Mennini the Order of the Holy Prince Daniel of Moscow, third degree, according to Interfax news.

Archbishop Mennini is being awarded "in recognition of his efforts for establishing good relations between the Russian Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches and on the occasion of his 60th birthday," the official site of the Moscow Patriarchate reported today.

Monsignor Mennini has served as the Vatican's representative in Russia since November 2002.

ZE07090404 - 2007-09-04

------------------------

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Epiphanius] #253236
09/18/07 08:00 PM
09/18/07 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Undoubtedly, it could lead to more trouble, but let's consider what the alternatives are:
a.) do nothing at all sleep
b.) send missionaries to Russia without coordinating with the ROC shocked
c.) have some kind of limited cooperative effort (which might actually be more of a problem, due to the RO mistrust of the RCs) crazy


OR

d.) drop the term missionary and "missions" and simply identify Catholics who are in the RF, and send them priests. Who goes to them, goes to them.

The distrust of RC by the ROC is sad and unfortunate. But I struggle in my heart with not being left with a lot of love for their ilk and actions during the past 100 years either.

So I respectfully submit and maintain that even we should be allowed to be what we are where we are, with or without his blessing. Even if we grew to 2M or more in the RF, to claim or contend that those hypothetical faithful would have been ripped from the bosom of Orthodoxy is something I can't buy into. As it stands right now, a good deal of them would be ripped from the pit of modernism and disbelief.

If they wish our scholarly assistance or even some financial help in some matters for the ROC, so be it - we have already been doing just that. The idea of sending our priests to be under his direction just gives me a headache.


Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Zan] #253265
09/19/07 05:32 AM
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Russia in in problems with orthodoxy, just as we are in Montenegro.
I deeply respect Greece. Orthodoxy is a state religion, proselytism is forbiden, other faiths cannot do whatever they want. End of story. Everything is given in the Constitution.

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: Krsto] #253286
09/19/07 11:14 AM
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Krsto,

Freedom of religion is something to be respected, not deplored.

Is this really the way people think in Montenegro?

Alexis

Re: Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism" [Re: A Simple Sinner] #253289
09/19/07 11:56 AM
09/19/07 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
The distrust of RC by the ROC is sad and unfortunate. But I struggle in my heart with not being left with a lot of love for their ilk and actions during the past 100 years either.

I suspect the ROs, for the most part, are struggling with their past as well, consciously or unconsciously. However, by opposing them we will be helping to persuade them of their own "rightness" and our "wrongness."

Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
So I respectfully submit and maintain that even we should be allowed to be what we are where we are, with or without his blessing.

From a standpoint of justice, I agree 100%. However, I believe that as Christians we are called to more than justice, and that only by "going the extra mile" in charity can we actually heal the wounds of the past.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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