My wife and I are trying in vain to reason with a certain ex-novice who left the Church and is now the head of an evangelical class called "Catholic Connection". Rachel has been the one e-mailing her, and she has been far from convincing.

What really offended us was a sermon this lady wanted us to read by John Rice, an old-school Baptist evangelist. She sent it so that we may come to an understanding of the folly of our convictions and faith. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20...holic_bible.htm He framed his sermon by using the Confraternity Bible as a rhetorical device in his point-by-point refutation of Church doctrine and dogma. He treats the "Catholic Bible" as if it were a foreign object by the language he uses ('their bible' vs. 'our bible').

He frames his sermon rather pointedly. He frames his quotes from Pope Benedict XV's Spiritus Paraclitus with, "I want you to see what Catholic authorities say about reading the Bible. Now our Catholic friends do not always do what their Bible says, just as we Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans and Episcopalians and Pentecostal people and others do not always do what our Bible says. But it would be well for you to know what Catholic authorities say about reading the Bible. Then we will show what the Catholic Bible says about many, many very interesting subjects."

Then after the quote, he continues to say, "Tonight I want it to be understood that I will not preach about Catholics, nor attack them. I have many Catholic friends, and as far as that is concerned, I love Catholic friends as I love others." But that is not what he does. He may distinguish preaching against Catholicism and preaching against Catholics, but his depictions of doctrine and dogma do not represent Church teaching and his quick dismissals are not framed in an understanding which is respectful to his Catholic friends.

Rachel has sent tempered responses, but the lady only sends back various lines of verses which, in one example, are supposed to prove that Purgatory does not exist and that souls are perfected when we are saved by proclaiming faith in Jesus. We could dismiss this lady, but we were pressured to attend her class by employees of a non-profit organization Rachel has been working for. All we can do is see how this will turn out. Reasoning with the lady won't help because she won't address questions we raise and responds to disagreement by praying for us, so that we may join in agreement with her "by the Grace of the Holy Spirit."

How should we respond to this pressure?

And a more general question, how can we Evangelize when reason fails?

Terry

Terry,



Unfortunately, this may be the source of the other problems. Without "reason", and the will to use it, dialogue is impossible. So, maybe that's the key: they aren't interested in a dialogue, only in making "converts".

If John Rice is committed to shooting down the strawmen of poorly-articulated "Catholic" doctrines, you could ask him to address a better-articulated statement such as you might find in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, or some other publicly-available document. If he won't do that, he's a charlatan.

Wishing you and Rachel good fishing!
Michael

Well, John Rice can't be argued with. I think he passed away in 1980. The teacher was using his sermon as an authority. We have been trying to attempt a dialogue with her, but she has refused to acknowledge our viewpoint. I just heard word that the manager of the non-profit just e-mailed Rachel so that they "can have a discussion."

We were honest and direct in the e-mails. But maybe they see that as uncalled for. I just don't understand that attitude.

Terry

Terry,

Sorry to hear about John Rice!

I think the principle is clear, though. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to honesty and clarity (though online, one man's joke is another man's insult).

Michael

Terry,

Kind-of reminds you of the way the people covered their ears to avoid hearing St. Stephen's discourse before stoning him!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

But by seeing that you are reasoning. Some people do not think about matters outside of what they accept and would see argument as 'masculine' or aggressive as opposed to a 'feminine' openness and understanding which is what they embrace.

I would wonder if it would have been possible to disagree while explaining our beliefs without offending the teacher. "I can't agree and I don't want to come to your class" would be a minimalist approach, but there's no explanation as to why there is a disagreement. We took a risk at being direct rather than saying what she wanted to hear, or by coming to the class and nodding our heads. But those are steps we cannot take.

I am sure that this lady is very nice and has the best of intentions. But there are better ways to be persuasive.

Terry

Terry try reading Dr. Francis Beckwith's writings, especially since he was the #1 Evangelical in the country and returned to his Catholic faith. http://homepage.mac.com/francis.beckwith/Menu3.html

Did you have any of his essays in mind?

I've read some of his articles before, but couldn't find one that would address the questions I have in dealing with Protestants who do not want a discussion but want to save you from hell on the authority of their personal interpretations of Scripture. Personally, my first instinct is to get to the root of what the disagreement is about and to point out how they misrepresent Catholicism with false assumptions if they do. But that was quite ineffective in dealing with this lady.

It may have been better not to have even tried reasoning with her. She is a kind woman and is not used to questions. Rachel was nearly fired from the non-profit and has been given the choice to stay on the condition that she won't "pick fights" or leave. The teacher sent the exchange she initiated to the board and (all of them also Protestant and in agreement with her theologically) they saw the attempt at defending our faith as aggressive and confrontational.

What was rather telling to them was that Rachel sent an additional e-mail defending the faith after the teacher said "let's agree to disagree." But, that was the first sentence of her e-mail. After that sentence she continued to quote scripture to make her point about salvation and Purgatory and attached that sermon on the top of this thread. It was that sermon which prompted the last e-mail...and that is what got Rachel in trouble.

In dealing with evangelism, we seemed to have made a mess of things. What's the best way to respond to Evangelicals who misrepresent the Church when trying to "save you" or bring you to their church to "be born again"?

"No thanks, I am already born."? Or an explanation? Or does it just depend on how receptive they will be, or if they are conversational?

Terry

Terry,

He was part of a conference here, his adventure has been amazing, he gave two talks. One was on his journey back to the Church, the other was on 'In US Culture - Jesus is not Lord.' He said we have a 'Dictatorship of Relativism'. He thought it an odd title at first, but as he prayed it led him into teaching us about it. He used John 1:1, that Christ is Logos, the Word, existance of everything in knowledge itself depends on Christ Logos, but in our culture the debate is over reason and matter. Gen 1:1, the theological truth is absolute, it transmit dignity,ethics, absolutes, it all arrives from the Nature of God.

He went on to explain that our culture is a Dictorship of Revelatism, meaning that no one has truth, so everyone should be open minded, it is under the authority of each person.

So his nephew or neice can't remember which, presented this to his professor. Well if no one has truth, why should we listen to anyone. The responce was basically, only religion - especially the Catholic Church - cannot be true. That you can believe what you want, but not believe it is true. Well you get the picture.

If anyone would like to get the CD from his talks at our conference they are $8.00 each, there were two of them.

Also, Deacon Mel Marts was really good to. He is from the Louisiana Bayou, and part of the New Orleans conference. He is truly a story teller and brings the Gospel to life!

It is $28.00 for the complete set, plus S&H. You can oder them by sending an email to ccrob@catholic.org

I think that if the person you are talking with clearly isn't interested in being fair or in listening, then the best thing to say is, "You know, I appreciate your concern, but I really don't think it is appropriate to discuss religion, and so I am not going to discuss it."

Joe

He mentioned this article several times during his talk here in Birmingham.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-05-019-v

That's a good point Joe. No words could help the situation until they start to listen as they are listened to too. The problem sometimes is that people become so vested in their beliefs (even beliefs about what Catholics teach) that if there is grounded disagreement against their claims they shut their eyes and ears to it. Listening would be quite risky if they were an established and respected teacher at a large megachurch.


Pani Rose,

I'll have to read that in full later.

Study programs at some of the parishes I've visited have seemed weaker than what I saw at Protestant churches. I don't mean the classes themselves, but how they are "advertised". In a Protestant church like the one I grew up in, there was pressure from the church community to participate in the classes. There were adult classes for men, for singles, for various age groups and seniors (besides the children and youth classes). So even though the church was relatively small, ~250 weekly attendance, they had about eight separate adult classes which were strongly attended by most of the people who would attend the service.

I can understand the draw an underdeveloped Catholic could see at a church which has a class like "Catholic Connection." Even if they accept what they are told about what the Church teaches, they can gain a more vibrant faith than they had. It might even awaken them to a faith filled-life. But where there is that energy of the moment in a church like that, there is a beauty to the prayer of mass and a reality to the sacrament of the Eucharist which cannot be matched by a good sermon and praise and worship. Part of why I converted was that conviction. The first time I stepped into a Catholic church to see the mass, I was overwhelmed by a gravity of holiness which was far larger than myself. It is hard to depict, but I was in awe.

Sorry if I'm babbling at this point. This whole experience highlights a need in my area (others too, I'm sure) of open and welcoming education within the parishes where people can develop an aspiration to live the faith of the saints.

Pani Rose, I enjoyed the article; thanks. Pope JP II was such a wise, smart man.I think even many Catholics and Orthodox along with other Christians underestimate the strenghth of the strong foundational underpinnings built by the Church Fathers.Without it even Protestants wouldn't exist. The more I read them the more I realize that there really is nothing new under the sun as far as arguments against Christianity go, and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel(and this is what happens with creative interpretations).
How ironic that where Protestants know the bible, but lack a proper interpretational foundation many, too many, Orthodox and Catholics know neither the foundations or the bible. Terry is right about the need for classes. We also need to include the saints in our study.

Terry, I was also greatly impressed by the holiness of Catholic services.

With the saints people can be taught how living the faith is possible for them. It is much better to aim high and maybe miss the mark than aim low (the minimum of salvation) and miss the mark.

Terry,

I think you're spot-on regarding the need for better catechesis across the board. I also think your reflection on the draw of the church is telling: the gravity of a solemn service.

During my lengthy conversion, my mind became convinced I needed to become Catholic, but I really couldn't connect at any of the RC liturgies I attended. The solemnity just wasn't there (these were Novus Ordo liturgies at parishes near the university I attended, what my godmother refers to as "guitar Masses"). Then I stumbled onto a Ruthenian parish and my heart finally bought into what my mind had been saying for a long time and I immediately began new Christian formation at the church where I'd be baptized.

I am convinced these two factors are still not fully appreciated in the life of the Catholic Church in America, whatever the rite. There are positive signs, such as greater availability for the Tridentine Mass at RC churches, but there is still too much emphasis on short services and too little pressure educate all members, of all ages, in the meat of our faith.

As far as trying to evangelize those who would harden their hearts to you, I'd say match their prayer with prayer of your own AND thank them for their interest. They themselves may enjoy the Grace they intend for you.