Maybe this has already been brought up. It probably has. But we are having this debate about the Revised Divine Liturgy and how it should be done. Translations, music, rubrics, etc. Has anyone talked to our counterparts in SubCarpathian-Rus? I understand there was a very determined effort to stamp out Greek-Catholics in that part of Europe. But it never really went away, it went underground. If there are questions about music--has anyone found out what music is being used in our ancestor's homeland? What words are they using in the Liturgy? What rubrics?

There may be a good reason to discount or not use anything that is being used in "the old country." But if there is--what is it? I understand that Rome has it's version from the 1940's, then there's the 1965 English version and that there were differences. But what kind of Liturgy are they using in Uzhorod? Or Kosice? Or any other number of places in what is now Eastern Slovakia and Western Ukraine.

Just curious.

Tim

Before we see what our brothers in the homeland are doing, we must realize one important thing about the homeland.

The Greek Catholic Church in the homeland has already gone through extensive latinization as well as massive Slovakization and Ukrainization efforts in those respective countries.

The attempted liquidation of Rusyns through communism did not cease after the fall of those regimes. It is still going on throughout the Church.

As is the case here in America, many clergy as well as faithful are trying to regain and restore what was once exculsively Rusyn.

You can read more about it at this website in English:
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/en_religions.html

For the record, I think we need to see what kind of liturgies they use in Medzilaborce, Kamienka, Svaliava, Komloska, and Krynica.

Using the models in Kosice and Uzhorod are not good examples. I was in Kosice once when they had a "folk liturgy" using guitars and other instruments. What's up with that!?! Here is a picture I found from the 2007 Palm Sunday liturgy in Kosice: http://www.aetos.sk/images/f2007-007/P1010392.JPG There are many others like this, some even with electric guitars in church.

In Presov, the "vicar" for Rusyns Fr. Halko is basically a plant for Bishop Babjak. His Rusyn is not that good and does everything that Bishop Babjak tells him to do, even if it is anti-Rusyn.

If you want a better example for Uzhorod, you need to go to the Orthodox Cathedral of the Exaltation of the Cross. Fr. Dimitri Sidor uses Church Slavonic in his liturgies and proclaims the Gospel and gives homilies in Rusyn, not Ukrainian.

Here is some information from ecpubs:

new titles

Dn. Anthony

I have witnessed the "Guitar Masses" at Kosice Cathedral. Truly an abomination!

Ungcsertezs

Maybe that's what they were doing here:

http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/?zobrazit=album&id=440



Dave

UUUUGGGGHHHHH! More collapsible Mitres!

Ungcsaertezs

Maybe we should organize a modest collection for that poor Mitred Archprest:

a) to buy him an epigonation, and
b) to buy him a couple of tubes of hair-restorer so his beard will grow.

Fr. Serge

Ah, a post-911 airline security regulation, no extra suitcase for regular "hardtop" mitre allowed! Only one vestment clothing bag per bishop!

Ung

Is that a copy of the Holy Shroud of Turin on the walls of the Cathedral?

Ung

Biskupi z Ameriky. Pravda! Or as my babcia used to say "na sure!"

http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/grafika/440_25.jpg

They look completely Roman Catholic.

I wonder if they know what a klobuk is?

Ung,

Yes it is a replica of the Shroud. Bishop Babjak told me that it is one of only a few copies in the world.

As for the bishops in the homeland, does anyone know why they were there? I saw Bishop Schott, Bishop Skurla and Bishop Pazak.

I did see one of the pictures from the grkat.sk site that shows Bishop Basil reading from a "red book".

I'm not sure if this is the reason why they were there but my friend Juraj is a seminarian in the Seminary in Presov and he said he thought the bishops were in Slovakia for a pilgrimage to Uzhorod for the anniversary of the death of Bishop Romzha.

Yes, Bishop Milan of Mukachevo invited all the "Ruthenian" bishops to be present for the celebration of the 60th anniversary of the death of Blessed Theodore. There was a whole week of special events and liturgies, and a few meetings of the bishops concerning church architecture and liturgy. It was the first time all the Ruthenian bishops in the world met for anything other than when they gathered in Rome for the anniversary of the Union of Uzhorod in 1996. It was very edifying to see the spirituality and piety of the faithful, seminarians, clergy and bishops all together. I was priviledged to be there, and shot over 20 hours of video. I will be editing them into various shows on OLTV, which can be viewed as streaming video for free and available for purchase as DVDs. One coming soon in time for Christmas gifts will be a DVD and CD of about a dozen Slavonic Christmas Hymns, many that I knew and a few I never heard before, sung by the Uzhorod Seminary choir.

Each bishop was a main celebrant for the various liturgies, and Metropolitan Basil was the main celebrant for the feastday liturgy on Thursday, November 1st, in the Uzhorod Cathedral. All the services during the week were in Church Slavonic, except a few litanies in English and Romanian and Hungarian. On the feastday I chanted the Epistle in English (with a local lector doing Church Slavonic) while Fr Andrew Deskevich of Erie chanted the Gospel in English (and Archdeacon Marian proclaimed it in Church Slavonic).

The whole week was a great renewal of our Church's roots!

Jack

Sounds great! But why do teeth have to be pulled to get a Slavonic liturgy here in the USA?

If Metropolitan Basil can sing it there, why not here?

"One coming soon in time for Christmas gifts will be a DVD and CD of about a dozen Slavonic Christmas Hymns, many that I knew and a few I never heard before, sung by the Uzhorod Seminary choir."

I'll be looking forward to it!

There's a youtube video. Just search "Prostopinije"

Good to hear Church Slavonic was used in the liturgies and not venacular Ukrainian and Slovak.

U-C

"There's a youtube video. Just search "Prostopinije" "

Note that the Youtube video is from June 2006, not from the recent 2007 celebrations. I should know, since it was my camera that recorded that video.

Steve

It's a small world!

If we could just get everyone to use Church Slavonic, it would be even smaller!

(just kidding!)

Tim

Why just kidding?

Church Slavonic is an incredibly important part of the heritage of the Rusyn people and their church. It would be incredibly sad in my opinion if it fell in to complete disuse. We always do some at my parish, though I wish we would do a little more. Granted, I think an entirely Slavonic liturgy would not make sense to do on a regular basis, but it also shouldn't just go away. A balance is in order. Some hymns to my ear, such as svjatyj boze and the preterp'ivyj, simply just sound better in Slavonic as well.

Check out this link: http://byzcath.org/fortpierce/SoundBlox/Liturgical_Music.html

This was posted last year, but I thought I'd bring it up again. Some great Slavonic prostopinije from 1965. The people sing it with such heartfelt emotion.

"preterp'ivyj" is not a liturgical text or hymn at all. So sing it as you wish.

Fr. Serge

I'm not a liturgical expert by any means, so I tend to refer to pretty much everything sung in church as a hymn.

I seem to remember someone saying "preterp'ivyj" was a Polish Latinization and shouldn't be used. I'm still trying to research
this "para-liturgical" custom.

U-C

We sing it after the presanctified liturgy three times alternately in English and Slavonic. I honestly don't care where it came from or what the proper title of it is, I like it.

I'm not convinced that it is a Polish Latinization becuase many Rusyn and Ukrainian Orthodox still use this "para-liturgical" custom.

U-C

Dear U-C,

In twenty years or more, you are the only person I've ever heard suggesting this, and you have done so quite a few times - maybe you could tell us who is saying this, and whether they are really advocating it not be sung? Or are you combining "This came from the Poles originally" with a (supposed) "Nothing from Western sources may EVER be used" to draw a conclusion of your own?

I don't understand your point in repeatedly saying this. It might have been Polish; so what?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

AMM wrote: "Why just kidding?

Church Slavonic is an incredibly important part of the heritage of the Rusyn people and their church. It would be incredibly sad in my opinion if it fell in to complete disuse. We always do some at my parish, though I wish we would do a little more. Granted, I think an entirely Slavonic liturgy would not make sense to do on a regular basis, but it also shouldn't just go away. A balance is in order. Some hymns to my ear, such as svjatyj boze and the preterp'ivyj, simply just sound better in Slavonic as well. "

I couldn't agree more with you. I love the Church Slavonic and find myself singing church songs in slavonic around the house. My mother did it also and I used to think she was crazy. Now I'm doing some cooking and hear myself singing "Svate Boze" or some other song. And you are right--some hymns just sound better in Slavonic. During Liturgy I sing in Slavonic, very quietly, to myself while everyone else is singing in English. The Otce Nas just is better, to me, in Slavonic. I would not mind a totally Slavonic Liturgy myself but understand that many people would not like it. I would love to see (hear?) several hymns in Slavonic at least once per month, in order to make sure it is continued. Or else it will be lost forever. And that is a real shame.

I was just joking about everything being in Church Slavonic since there are some very strong feelings about using it or not using, depending on how one looks at the issues. And the new Liturgy, which does not have any Slavonic in it yet. I understand that there will be books printed with the Liturgy in Slavonic, they just did not put them in the new pew books due to the size it was already. Hospodi Pomilju comes out of my mouth on a regular basis. Even in October I've been known to break into a rousing rendition of "Christos Voskrese!" I love it. So please don't get me wrong. Other people love their languages just as much as I love Church Slavonic and I would not deprive them of that joy.

S'nami Boh!

Tim

My parish, and I would guess it's not alone, is really trying to balance two things. One is the Rusyn identity of the church and its heritage, and the other is the desire to be open to others and grow outside of the existing community. There's no real one simple answer. If you did everything in Slavonic and really made the parish feel like a hub of Rusyn culture, you would have a hard time attracting people who don't share this background and can't understand the language; but if you pull all of the Rusyn culture and language out, you lose one of the treasures of the church and something the existing people cherish. When you remove the cultural component, I think there is a kind of sterility left, because particular churches grow and function in a specific cultural milieu (to use a fancy word).

I don't know where may parish falls in maintaining the balance. The regular Sunday liturgy is generally almost all English, but always with at least one hymn in Slavonic. The general greetings such as "Christ is in our midst" are always given in both languages, and when people venerate the cross our priest will greet people in either English or Slavonic depending on how he thinks they would like to be addressed. The use of Slavonic tends to go up at weekday liturgies, holidays or other special services. That's actually largely at the discretion of our choir director, since she's not working out of the book for a lot of that. The diocese pew book is mostly in English, but a lot of what happens doesn't come out of the pew book. The diocese prayer book has prayers in both English and Slavonic, but most of it is English. Our parish has people of various Central/European backgrounds, but also Greek, Lebanese and Ukrainian people from other churches; as well as families and individuals like myself who are not Slavic or Orthodox in our background.

What would make me think the future of Slavonic in the church may be in trouble is not that anyone is against its use per se, but simply that most younger people don't understand it. The older generation knows all of the Slavonic stuff by heart, and there's very little if any printed material around in Slavonic that people use. I can see that when Slavonic is being sung it tends not to be the younger people singing along, and in Sunday school only a few prayers are taught in Slavonic. It's the next generation that will ultimately decide what happens with the language I think. The other factor I believe is that as some of the younger generation moves away from the old immigration centers, they are more likely to end up in parishes that are not Rusyn and don't use anything but English.

Gentlemen,

I wish to respond to your two points:

Point One: (in response to Keith)

There was no "assumption" in my previous statement about the origin of "Preter'pivyj."

"Preter'pivyj" seems to have been translated into Church Slavonic from Polish, taken from the "Service of the Bitter Lamentations" (better known as "Gorzkie Żale"), which traces its origin to Warsaw's Holy Cross Church (circa 1700).

Specifically, it is a derivation of one of the closing hymns from that service: "Któryś za nas cierpiał Rany, Jezu Chryste, zmiłuj się nad nami." Besides being a hymn at "Gorzkie Żale," it's also used as the last invocation of each of the Polish Stations of the Cross in some usages.

Point Two: (in response to Jeff)

You'll note that earlier comments, which I reproduced above, did not say: "Do not sing the hymn because it has a Polish origin." The point was to document the origin of the hymn, and I believe I did that quite well.

My personal opinion:
I believe that the treasury of liturgical hymns (i.e., those from Matins, the Hours, Vespers, etc.) most appropriately reflect the concept of the Great Fast in our Church, and that they do not need to be supplemented with "Preter'pivyj." As such, I have not used the hymn "Preter'pivyj" in any of the parishes that I serve, on any occasion, in the past several years.

While many believe this hymn to be an integral part of the end of Lenten Vespers and the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts; I believe that both of those services should begin and end in prayerful silence.

As for those parishes that wish to sing "Preter'pivyj" (or any para-liturgical hymn), I would suggest that they pass it by the litmus test in the Cantors' Companion: "Hymns are to be theologically consistent with the spirituality of the Byzantine Church." Once it passes the test, it is really up to the Pastor & Cantor to determine which of these para-liturgical hymns are most appropriate to meet the unique needs of the parish.

Yours in Christ,
Cantor JKF

In my opinion, I don't think "Preter'pivyj"'s origin is that clear and I'll continue looking for more sources, especially Ukrainian Orthodox sources.

As far as using the Cantor's Companion as a litmus test, I'll have to pass. I will continue to look at Orthodox Church usage as a better litmus test.

Here's a link to a discussion about the tradition of para-liturgical hymns among Rusyn and Ukrainian Greek Catholics. It was written by an Orthodox poster:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxPSALM/message/28363

Ungcsertezs

...or St Elias Church in Brampton. It doesn't get any more Orthodox than that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_E9kdDfhI

Ungcsertezs

If anyone wants a "Litmus Test" of the authenticity of "preterpiviy" or any other allegedly liturgical text, rather than appealing either to a particular parish or to a manual for chanters, it is sensible to look in the liturgical books themselves. Does anyone claim to have found "preterpivy" in the Lenten Triodion?

Fr. Serge

Still looking for such documentation. Could this be an organic developement of the South-West Rus' Recension? I would not hastily write this tradition off as a Latinization just because the Greeks or Great Russians have never used it.

Ungcsertezs (Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on Us!)

Dear Ung,

The organic development, if you will, is our practice of singing hymns of the Passion for the entire length of the Great Fast. Could be a Latinization, might just be a parallel development. It is probably at least IN PART a reflection of the general piety of much of Europe.

The problem I see is that you keep posting sly comments about things being forbidden, as if to paint bishops or liturgical commission members in the worst possible light. You have repeatedly hinted that Church Slavonic, paraliturgical hymn singing, and this particular hymn are or will soon be forbidden (without saying by whom). That is why I asked WHO has said NOT to sing Preterpivyj during the Fast. The only time this has come up as ANYTHING like a directive is its omission immediately after the Presanctified Liturgy FROM A SERVICE BOOKLET, which merely reflects the fact that it is NOT part of the official service, and the compiler's sense that this hymn would be more appropriate after OTHER services.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Jeff,

Is not the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts the main lenten service to be used during the Great Fast according to the Metropolia's regulations? Why not include such lentens hymns in the Presanctified Liturgy booklets?

Until such para-liturgical hymns are actually published by the Metropolia, I will continue to make the inference that they are not to be used. I think our hierarchs are ashamed of this localized tradition of the Ruthenian Recension and have been making every effort to use a more Greek Rencension.

Ungcsertezs

It may not be in the Lenten Triodion, but they sing it in the ROCOR cathedral in Mayfield, Pa (they also use "Trojce" candles).

Dn. Robert

It is also still used by many OCA parishes as well. Again, is it truly a Latinization or just a local Ruthenian Recension custom?

Ungcsertezs

Why on earth does it matter.

What? An Orthodox parish using a "Trojca" candle, what heresy! I'll have to notify the Recension Police at once!

U-C

The Preterp'ivyj is done at my OCA parish, which is mostly made up of Rusyns with Greek Catholic roots. Half the church also kneels during the Otce Nas. But that's another story.

People may carry whatever candles they like for all of me (except the diabolical kind). But claiming that "preterpiviyj" is some sort of liturgical text is inaccurate, no matter who is singing it. Or when. Or where.

Fr. Serge

Many Orthodox parishes use the trojca candle. Come to where I live and have a sample for yourself.

Matt,

I'm glad that this tradition is still observed by many Orthodox parishes.

Ungcsertezs

Ung, me and you don't live too far apart, and many of the Orthodox churches between us probably will be using the trojca tomorrow morning.

Ours sees use every Sunday.

Here it is link.

We use the identical set at my parish.