The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Sebastião, NJC89, AsOnDryLand, Joe R, FrEugene
5595 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Krysostomos), 61 guests, and 74 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,713
Posts411,784
Members5,595
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: lanceg] #264203
11/23/07 04:19 PM
11/23/07 04:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear Lanceg,

And there are the Anglican Catholics who say they are even more orthodox than the "wishy-washy" Anglo-Catholics!

There is an Anglican Catholic website with all sorts of material online somewhere, including a scriptural Rosary and the like.

Alex

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: ZAROVE] #264537
11/25/07 08:44 PM
11/25/07 08:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
Cranmer's "eucharistic theology" was neither Lutheran nor Calvinist - he was essentially Zwinglian in the matter. In English, his teaching is often called "receptionism". I suggest a careful reading of the "Black Rubric" in the 1552 Book of Common Prayer.

There are several bases for the condemnation of Anglican Orders, and one of the most important is "defect of intention". As a result, anyone who has received Anglican ordination and later seeks recognition from Rome must not only demonstrate that the Bishop who ordained him was genuinely in the Apostolic Succession - as would certainly be the case if such a Bishop belonged to the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches. He must also show that his own (Anglican) ordaining bishop had a sufficient intention to do what the Catholic Church does.

Fr. Serge

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #264611
11/26/07 04:09 AM
11/26/07 04:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Eparchy of Van Nuys
A
A Simple Sinner Offline
Member
A Simple Sinner  Offline
Member
A

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Eparchy of Van Nuys
If the Anglican Communion had a serious interest in getting Rome to accept that there orders were now valid due to the "Dutch Touch", a press might have been made for it.

Interestingly, arguments against the "DT" even being good enough are mentioned and alluded to by folks not satisfied with the manner in which the Ultrajectines participated in Anglican ordinations. It is well outside my competence or paygrade to discuss - intelligently or otherwise - but I can at least link to a quote where it is brought up...

"Incidentally, the reason why Broadhurst, although he received a Dutch Touch, needs ordinatio sub conditione in order to bury the effects of Apostolicae Curae is that Rome definitely stated in 1948 that Accipe Spiritum Sanctum is NOT the form in the conferring of the episcopate; and what Dutch Touchers used to do was to impose both hands and say merely “Accipe Spiritum Sanctum”. Cardinal Gasparri and his contemporaries may have found ASS adequate, but the decision in re Graham Leonard (that “there is a doubt [merely] about the invalidation of his presbyteral orders”) makes clear that the Dutch Touch as we have experienced it since the 1920s is not good enough for the experts whose vota the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith took. I can see why”."

SEE: http://all2common.classicalanglican.net/? page_id=343

Of course I always worry that all the speculation about the matter can make us all look like we are approaching the level of "magic hands mystery" chasing...

But rather simply even with "pedigree" and the "dutch touch" & "polish pat" not all Roman objections disappear.

I for one am glad its not in my job description to decide these things!

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #264952
11/27/07 07:03 PM
11/27/07 07:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476
Philadelphia, PA
Byzantophile Offline
Member
Byzantophile  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476
Philadelphia, PA
Quote
He must also show that his own (Anglican) ordaining bishop had a sufficient intention to do what the Catholic Church does.


This would not be hard to do, however, in the case of Anglo-Catholics or Anglo-Papalists. There are many in the C of E; and were more than a few in the American Episcopal Church up until recently.

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Byzantophile] #265072
11/28/07 07:30 AM
11/28/07 07:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
That an Anglican minister provides High Church services does not necessarily prove anything about what he does or does not believe.

Fr. Serge

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #265090
11/28/07 12:59 PM
11/28/07 12:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Rocky Hill, CT
John K Offline
Member
John K  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Rocky Hill, CT
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
That an Anglican minister provides High Church services does not necessarily prove anything about what he does or does not believe.

Fr. Serge


You're right Father--but it speaks volumes about what he believes.

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #265109
11/28/07 03:25 PM
11/28/07 03:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Bless Father!

Ah, there's the rub!

Anglican Catholic clergy will believe and act as any other Catholic clergy just as if the 39 articles and Cranmer never existed. That is truly confusing but here is one example.

One Anglo-Catholic priest commemorated the souls in purgatory. Afterwards, it was pointed out to him that the 39 Articles of Religion condemned this practice as a vain and "fond Romish" thing.

To this he replied that he knew that, but that he invoked the "Anglican doctrine of purgatory" and not the Roman one . . .

The same applied to the veneration of Saints, relics etc.

There have been entire Anglican religious Orders that have left their jurisdiction when their local bishop forbade them to use candles in their worship and the like.

No wonder a number of them are crossing over to RCism or Orthodoxy . . .

Alex

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #265116
11/28/07 03:54 PM
11/28/07 03:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
Upon giving the matter my consideration, I decided to send my response to Alex - which I rather think he will enjoy - as a PM. What I wrote might disturb those who have no sense of humor.
Fr Serge

Wups! Alex doesn't accept PMs. His loss!

Last edited by Serge Keleher; 11/28/07 03:55 PM.
Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #265122
11/28/07 04:13 PM
11/28/07 04:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Bless, Father,

smile

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #265123
11/28/07 04:15 PM
11/28/07 04:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Eparchy of Van Nuys
A
A Simple Sinner Offline
Member
A Simple Sinner  Offline
Member
A

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Eparchy of Van Nuys
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Upon giving the matter my consideration, I decided to send my response to Alex - which I rather think he will enjoy - as a PM. What I wrote might disturb those who have no sense of humor.
Fr Serge

Wups! Alex doesn't accept PMs. His loss!


What a shame. I bet it was witty.

I do accept PMs... just sayin'

Simple

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: A Simple Sinner] #265130
11/28/07 04:19 PM
11/28/07 04:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Dear Sinner (as we all are!),

I don't know how to get back on the PM bandwagon, being a technopeasant and as I am on good behaviour, don't want to rock the boat by asking anything further! smile

Alex (who knows all about sinning . . .)

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #265148
11/28/07 05:23 PM
11/28/07 05:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Chicago
In many of the blue states, the high church Anglican/Episcopalian parishes are the most "gay friendly", even rectors with live-in boyfriends.. they seem to like the pomp and grandiosity, but don't care for the doctrine and theology..

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Michael_Thoma] #265187
11/28/07 09:08 PM
11/28/07 09:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline
Member
Logos - Alexis  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
A Roman Catholic friend chuckled to me yesterday (well, chucked over Instant Messenger), that some Anglicans will go to great lengths to get Apostolic Succession as defined in Apostolicae Curae , but still won't convert. smile

Alexis

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Michael_Thoma] #265283
11/29/07 06:14 AM
11/29/07 06:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476
Philadelphia, PA
Byzantophile Offline
Member
Byzantophile  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476
Philadelphia, PA
Quote
In many of the blue states, the high church Anglican/Episcopalian parishes are the most "gay friendly", even rectors with live-in boyfriends.. they seem to like the pomp and grandiosity, but don't care for the doctrine and theology..


Sadly this is a growing trend. Most of the traditional Anglo-Catholics can only be found now in England, West Africa, and the Barbados. Traditional Anglo-Catholicism in America is well nigh dead...

Re: Anglican Bishops becoming Catholic [Re: Michael_Thoma] #265492
11/30/07 04:01 AM
11/30/07 04:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22
joisey
StAnthony Offline
Junior Member
StAnthony  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 22
joisey
Don't forget about the "Clown Liturgy's" and the Wiccan and Druid cerimonies in the National Cathedral. The Gay thing is just the tip of the iceberg that sank the Episcopal ship.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 7.1.31 Page Time: 0.025s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 2.6276 MB (Peak: 2.7364 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-08-18 09:38:53 UTC