That's like trying to keep the Titanic afloat after hitting the iceberg. Good luck!

Very interesting. It reminds me of what a parishioner at the local ROCA/ROCOR parish once said about his being aghast when he heard that the priest of the local Moscow Patriarchy parish had compressed the Easter Vigil down to an hour.

Thanks, Byzantophile, I will read these documents with great
interest and pass them along.

Easter Vigil one hour??? Our quickest time is two and a half,
with the procession around the church building (done once and
its not long). Our longest in the last twelve years was four
and a half. How we managed to do that I don't know.(It was my
first one and did my feet hurt!)Liturgy all by itself always
takes us well over an hour.

Edmac

Fr Deacon Lance wrote: "I never understood how abbreviation = Latinization."

He does bring up a valid point that there seems to be a logical jumping to a conclusion that abbreviations equal "latinisation". Perhaps there are different avenues of such latinisations internal and external. External latinisations are easier to prove, coming from outside the Byzantine church (BCC, UGCC, etc), such as the forced celibacy issue. Internal latinisations tend to be much more scattered and differented between individual parishes. They are more a function of how RC vs EC the parishioners and priest view their style of worship.

Currently, in the BCC (Pittsburgh Metropolia) we do sing all three antiphons, unfortunately we don't sing all three verses (since they weren't included in the books approved by our hierarchs).

Byzantophile wrote: "Abbreviation = Modernization is a more fitting equation. "

That does seem to fit more of the cases involving ALL churches today.

Again, we should not be comparing how long or short our liturgies are like some schoolyard contest.

The Antiochians and other Orthodox do indeed abbreviate Antiphons. It is not solely a Greek Catholic or latinizing phenomenon. The abbreviated Psalms of Typika also are not new in Orthodox usage.

Unfortunately, although approximately 10 people from the Holy Trinity Community in Bridgeport became Orthodox when it closed...the Roman ranks did swell (as much as this little ripple could allow ) and the most common issues people had was "liturgy over 1 hour" and "no pope?". I commend those who continue to "fight the good fight"...

Chris

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Just to add a wrinkle to this always-amusing* conversation: even if the Ruthenian BCC liturgies are only an hour or an hour-and-a-half long, at least the BCC faithful are in the temple for the duration, from start to finish.

In my experience of Sunday liturgies at Orthodox churches, most of the faithful arrive late -- which I consider a real slap in the face of our Host. For the Greeks, orthros is virtually unattended and folks start pouring in at around the thrice-holy hymn / the Gospel. Same holds true for the Albanian (OCA) church I sometimes attend. At the ROCOR Cathedral of St. John in DC, which I attended every Sunday during the summer of 2000, the people would arrive late and move in and out of the church throughout the 2.75-hour Sunday liturgy -- half would walk out during the homily! The only exception to this rule seems to be the ACROD churches I frequent and an Antiochian church I used to attend -- whose liturgies are, however, rarely longer than 1.5/2 hours.

I think we all agree that one should want to spend as much time with God as possible. Perhaps the way to encourage this more widely is to do really good liturgy for an hour, and leave people yearning for more.

In Christ,
Theophilos

* Amusing in the sense that the assumption is that one can prove his Orthodox bona fides by the amount of time he spends in church; anyone ever hear of the Pharisees? Just wondering.

This may be your experience, but please to not imply sweeping generalizations about Holy Orthodoxy--that is offensive.


R

Recluse...as a fellow Orthodox Christian myself...my experiences have been the same...I know many Orthodox priests who complain about this behavior as well...knowing Theophilos, I know his statement was not meant negatively only a matter of stating personal experiences...

Job

This is a problem in my OCA parish as well. Most don't show up until around the epistle/gospel readings. Some have even showed up after the sermon!

Recluse:

Give me a break. If it makes you feel any better, let me reiterate that I was only entering into the record my personal experiences with attending Orthodox churches from various jurisdictions.

But I wonder: Why is it that you felt no need to correct Stephanie Kotyuh's far more sweeping -- and far more incendiary -- statement that "the Byzantines are lazy and latinized and have it in their minds that we should be in and out of church in under an hour"? Is it because you agree with her? Or is it because you childishly think Orthodoxy is beyond reproach while no criticism of Byzantine Catholicism is ever unjustified? Come on, brother, explain yourself -- all of us lazy and latinized Byzantines want to know!

In Christ,
Theophilos

No need to throw ad hominems at me by calling me childish. All you have to do is ask me politely without your tirades.

Here is my experience.

I experienced many Latinized Byzantine Catholics and I often heard people complaining about the length of the Liturgy--one time, right to the priests face when we approached to venerate the Cross.

As an Orthodox Christian, very few in my parish arrive late (no more than arrived late when I was a Byzantine or Roman Catholic. And no one complains about lengthy Liturgies.

Now this may change, because I have not been Orthodox very long and I have only experienced my particular Church (parish).

That is my experience.

So you see, my friend, I have not experienced what you (and others) have seen and heard.

I did not mean to offend you. Please forgive me.

R

Theophilos does bring up a valid point, and one that I have noticed across the Orthodox spectrum, that being of people arriving late and cutting out early. All the priests and bishops that I have spoken to about this matter are just as frustrated with it as I am.

However.....in response to the aforementioned assertion that "one can prove his Orthodox bona fides by the amount of time he spends in church; anyone ever hear of the Pharisees?", I ask, where has anyone stated that? I believe I have stated the opposite:

"It's not about how much time Liturgy takes. It's about chopping up the Divine to accommodate those with minute attention spans and acute cell phone deprivation. If you can do the full Divine Liturgy in 15 minutes, well may God Bless you! But to give the Divine services the respect that they rightfully deserve, time should be of no concern whatsoever."

"It is one thing to accommodate the frailty of the laity with concessions to the Services, particularly those which can be wearisome to those who are not monastics. It is another thing to chop up the Divine Liturgy so people can fulfill their requirement in 60 minutes or less. That is the issue."

"What I'm seeing is a trivialization of the Sacred. One can't give a few hours out of the week to God? Is Sunday afternnon football more important than God? I'm not yelling at you, but just voicing my frustration at what I'm reading and hearing about. Why is everyone trying to cater to the lowest common denominator. if people gripe about a 2 hour liturgy, let them gripe. If they leave, what have you lost? One can lead a horse to water but one cannot make him drink. Present the fullness of the Divine Services to the flock. if they reject them, the sin be upon their head."

I think that the issue here is that the hierarchy of the BCC is SANCTIONING the abbreviation. That is what I find troubling.

Alexandr

Ok, we are way off topic here. Can this thread get back to discussion on the Second Anitphon. Also keep the posts on a charitable level.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Alexandr:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

If Father Anthony will indulge just one additional off-topic response...



A large part of me agrees with your recommended approach. But, then again, I'm the type of person who has always wanted to take the side of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son.

Indeed, the other (and far more Christ-like) part of me worries that this is not a terribly good way to make disciples of all the nations, to ensure that the Church is the kind of "spiritual bath" it is meant to be -- which is to say, I think your approach may be pastorally insensitive and untenable. I'm not a priest, but I can't imagine any priest who thinks it makes pastoral sense to tell one's flock: "You don't like standing in church for 3 hours every Sunday? Tough." I think there needs to be a gradual "building up" toward a fuller flowering of our liturgical life.

In Christ,
Theophilos

P.S. I'm sorry, but I find in your posts the conceit that the longer the Divine Liturgy, the better, i.e., the more authentically Orthodox. You said: "One can't give a few hours out of the week to God?" But I thought that "time should be of no concern whatsoever"? Were I a priest, I personally would take one truly heartfelt "O God, be merciful to me a sinner" over a liturgy with the three fully-versed antiphons and all the little litanies.