The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Taylor, Randy Danielson, TAFrazer, PNCC Random Guy, Coldstream
5,769 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (theophan), 69 guests, and 31 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,056
Posts414,078
Members5,769
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
The problem is that there are non-iconic pictures in Orthodox churches and also in Eastern EC Churches.

Father Anthony's advice, as Alice said, is the best.

These images, especially as they pertain to Catholic thematics, are very popular in numerous Catholic institutions. As for their Sacred Heart images, they are much better than anything any RC publishing house has put out. They are not Eastern in accordance with canons and the like, but they are images that point to Christian themes. For that alone, they should not be discarded.

And all truth, nomatter who confesses it, comes from the Holy Spirit, or so Aquinas said.

Frankly, they have little to do with Eastern Christians now anyway.

Alex

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
R
Bill from Pgh
Member
Offline
Bill from Pgh
Member
R
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
Dear Alex,

Here's a link to a Sacred Heart image I think you will like,

http://www.printeryhouse.org/ProdPage.asp?Prod=A06&cat=182

By a Benedictine, no less. wink

Bill

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 787
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 787
gross. images like that should be forbidden.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Iconography is, among other things, comparable to a language. Those who either do not understand that "language" or wilfully choose to ignore it will inevitably commit atrocities. If anyone really wants to see some extreme examples, in the Soviet period there were albums published showing, among other things, "icons" of such people as Lenin - the style is perfect; the subject is not! One can only be grieved by such a horror - and no, I don't have any examples of them in the house.

I don't doubt that the Benedictines, in producing that image, acted with good intentions . .. but we know just which road is paved with good intentions.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,184
Likes: 5
Certainly, one may write akathists to non-sainted individuals, to one's friends, as Taras Shevchenko once did in honour of a living friend who did him many kindnesses. And one can have icons painted in honour of one's parents or to anyone who has witnessed to Christ in their lifetime.

The Sacred Hearts images speak to not only RC's but also EC's - truth be told. Even Bl. Leonid Fyodorov had a devotion to the Sacred Heart, to Eucharistic Benediction. In fact, the rejection of these albeit Latin devotions by EC's is a modern phenomenon - legitimate etc., but still of modern provenance.

Alex

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 87
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 87
two questions,

even though it is not part of the Orthodox tradition, why would it be wrong for Roman Catholics to have icons of the Sacred Heart? That is a huge devotion in the West.

#2, where then can a Roman Catholic get good icons of Roman Catholic Saints? (or icons in general for that matter) Especially if you don't particularly appreciate the particular style that St. Isaac of Syria Skete makes.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
R
Bill from Pgh
Member
Offline
Bill from Pgh
Member
R
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704



"gross. images like that should be forbidden."



Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Iconography is, among other things, comparable to a language. Those who either do not understand that "language" or wilfully choose to ignore it will inevitably commit atrocities. If anyone really wants to see some extreme examples, in the Soviet period there were albums published showing, among other things, "icons" of such people as Lenin - the style is perfect; the subject is not! One can only be grieved by such a horror - and no, I don't have any examples of them in the house.

I don't doubt that the Benedictines, in producing that image, acted with good intentions . .. but we know just which road is paved with good intentions.

For the sake of Christ, forgive me.

Fr. Serge


Dear Friends In Christ,

I have a copy of and have read Ouspensky's "The Meaning of Icons". There are Eastern Churches with icons that do not meet and/or follow the canons of Orthodoxy.

My problem is I always speak and live from my heart and not from canons.

An icon of the Sacred Heart an atrocity?
I really had no idea the chasm between east and west is as deep and wide as this.

It actually takes me by surprise, simple as I am, but I have finally come to the realization I have nothing to lend to the discourse on this forum.

The Peace of Christ to All,
Bill


Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
The Peace of Christ to all indeed! A pseudo-icon is often an atrocity, although the person who painted it or who displays it may not realize the fact. Again, using the model of language can be instructive. One who commits a "linguistic atrocity" does not usually intend to do so - a double negative in English is an example; in many other languages a double negative is a quite normal and grammatically acceptable form. I once heard a Bishop, over the lunch table, say something in English that I would not dare quote - I had to remind myself that he had learned English as an adult; that his English was normally excellent, and that he did not realize the, ah, "colloquial" meaning of what he had said. None of these considerations would justify me in using that particular expression, and defending myself on the grounds that "Bishop So-and-So, who is a kind and holy man, used that expression over the lunch table!"

By the same token, we assume that the good monks of Conception Abbey had no realization that a "Sacred Heart Icon" could give offense. It happens.

Nevertheless, those who wish to be sensitive to our tradition, should learn what is acceptable and what is not, and what may have an iconographic meaning which they do not intend, before starting out full steam ahead.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
R
Bill from Pgh
Member
Offline
Bill from Pgh
Member
R
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 704
Dear Father Serge, bless,

I do not own this icon but I do not find it offensive or inappropriate but then again I am not an eastern Christian. At any rate I will continue to venerate one of my western "shmaltzy" images in my devotions to the Sacred Heart and hope my prayers be heard just the same.

In Christ,
Bill

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 576
OrthoDixieBoy
Member
Offline
OrthoDixieBoy
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 576
Quote
By the same token, we assume that the good monks of Conception Abbey had no realization that a "Sacred Heart Icon" could give offense. It happens.

Nevertheless, those who wish to be sensitive to our tradition, should learn what is acceptable and what is not, and what may have an iconographic meaning which they do not intend, before starting out full steam ahead.


Father Bless!

Could you please explain what makes this icon offensive? There are those of us who are quite in the dark about this.

Puzzled as rcguest,

Jason

Last edited by RomanRedneck; 12/10/07 11:11 PM.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Offline
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by rcguest
Dear Alex,

Here's a link to a Sacred Heart image I think you will like,

http://www.printeryhouse.org/ProdPage.asp?Prod=A06&cat=182

By a Benedictine, no less. wink

Bill



Bill,

Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad that this image has been a source of inspiration to you. If Fr. Serge is right about art being akin to language, then this would be a creole -- and not an atrocity. But, to the best of my limited knowledge, neither does it follow the pure tradition of icnography either. In the end, it is an image to aid a soul in prayer and in honoring God by combining traditonal elements of Western and Eastern Christianity. It's a creole.

-- John




Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 70
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 70
Re Devotion to the Most Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ: either the Sacred Heart of Jesus appeared or He did not...if He did and asked for a devotion to His Sacred Heart, and I believe that He did, as the Church has approved -- shouldn't this great and wonderful devotion be for the whole Church, not just the West?

If the Western Church said, "This devotion was requested by Our Lord, but it is only for us in the West, and not for the Catholics of Eastern traditions," wouldn't that be offensive?

So, for me, it boils down to: did Our Lord appear, or not? The Church has said, "yes...." so, certainly I want to give the Lord the veneration He has requested, to make the reparation He has requested... Right?!?!

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
The Church does not say whether a "private revelation" happened.
I declares that nothing in this is found against the faith and the faithful may either accept it or not.
Stephanos I
Private revelations are just that, private.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
AdsumJDS & Stephanos - both fair points.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 70
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 70
Yes, your are right, of course, Father, but the Church has and continues to foster devotion to Our Lord's Most Sacred Heart... and if "it is not against the Faith," then it cannot be offensive...

Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5