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The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem exists not to look after "pilgrims" to the Holy Land. It is a regular archdiocese of the Latin Church with immediate jurisdiction over all Latin rite Catholics in Israel and Palestine. (The Melkites and the Maronites have separate dioceses/archdioceses.)

The "Eastern" Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Michel Sabbah, holds this permanent honorific title, like the other 4 honorific "Western" Latin Patriarchs of Venice, Lisbon, the East Indies (Goa and Daman), and the West Indies (vacant since 1963).

His Beatitude Michel Sabbah is the first Palestinian to hold the post of Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. He will be succeeded by his coadjutor, appointed by the Pope in September 2005, Archbishop Fouad Twal of Tunis, at the earliest on 19 March 2008 when HB Michel Sabbah turns 75 and if his resignation is accepted by Pope Benedict XVI.

On the other hand, the Custos (The Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land) takes care of all pilgrims to the Holy Land.

Amado

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Prior to 1964, there were Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch. Since the first three had become nothing more than honorary titles by 1964 -- and these all happened to be vacant on that year -- Pope Paul VI abolished them. Ecumenism -- then a very new and a very hot concept -- was also a major factor in this decision.

However, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem could not be abolished for the very simple reason that there IS a Latin - rite flock in Israel who also need to be cared for. I am certain that the Latin rite flock there will not take gently to being told to go and become Melkite Catholic or Greek Orthodox. It is true that the origins of the Latin Patriarchate are less than honorable, in that it was the result of rivalry between the Greeks in Jerusalem and the Franco-German crusaders who ruled Jerusalem from 1099 to 1187 then again for about 20 years in the 13th century. However, this can never be enough reason to advocate the abolition of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Latin-rite faithful are in Jerusalem and have the right to keep their rite.

In the same way, the circumstances of the 1596 Union of Brest can never be used to justify the abolition of the UGCC and its incorporation into an Orthodox body.



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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Bless, Father Archimandrite!

You mean that the RC's don't consider Orthodox to be Christians? They need to go and proselytize from among them?

What don't the RC's concentrate on North America first? As someone once said, the two largest religious groups here are: Catholics and former Catholics.

Alex


C'mon, Alex! I'm sure you know by now that we Catholics consider the Orthodox to be Christians. Currently, only the SSPX / SSJK look at the Orthodox as potential proselytes.

In contrast, the Orthodox can't even agree on whether Catholics are baptized Christians.

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The Roman Catholics certainly consider Orthodox to be Christians. (In fact, in Vatican documents they are often given a special honorary title to acknowledge the apostolic succession.

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Dear asianpilgrim and Robert K,

Yes, I've read the places where the Orthodox are acclaimed as Christians etc. by Rome.

So why do RC's proselytize Orthodox in Israel and in Russia? Does that make sense to either of you?

And the Orthodox in those countries are well aware of that activity going on.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Bless, Father Archimandrite!

You mean that the RC's don't consider Orthodox to be Christians? They need to go and proselytize from among them?

What don't the RC's concentrate on North America first? As someone once said, the two largest religious groups here are: Catholics and former Catholics.

Alex


That's what I'm working on.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic


x x x. So why do RC's proselytize Orthodox in Israel and in Russia?

x x x.

Alex


No, we don't! wink

Amado

P.S. Have you read the "Doctrinal Note on Some Aspects of Evangelization"?

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Dear Amigo Amado,

The question is - have the RC's who proselytize Orthodox Christians read that document?

Can't speak for the Holy Land - that is Fr. Serge's domain (the Holy Land, not Holy Eire, that is).

As for Russia, I've met various people who showed me pamphlets being distributed (by Catholic nuns and male religious) at gatherings at which Orthodox were present that were overt attempts at proselytization. My in-laws saw this themselves and were quite shocked. When they asked the Latin priest why he wouldn't at least "convert the Orthodox to Eastern Catholicism" he replied that "That isn't my tradition."

Again, I don't see what a plethora of Vatican documents has to do with any of this.

Alex

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Dear Dr Eric,

Good for you, Big Guy!

Healing to the Masses, and all that!

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic


x x x.

What don't the RC's concentrate on North America first? As someone once said, the two largest religious groups here are: Catholics and former Catholics.

Alex


North America includes Mexico, the United States, and Canada.

Everyone knows the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. In the US, we still maintain a 23+% of the total population, i.e., we keep pace with population growth. And at 67 million+, Catholics form the largest religious body. "Former" Catholics don't number that much!

However, the Eastern Catholic component of the total Catholic population in this region is on a precipitous decline.

Should we ask you why?

Amado

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Dear Amigo Amado,

Well, North America has a strong Catholic culture. Quebec is also "Catholic" but it is hardly a place for Catholics to "live, work and raise a family" as it is really quite "un-Catholic."

How meaningful are the numbers you cite? Are baptismal records good indicators of the number of practicing Catholics there really are around, enough to make an impact on our society or whether they are informed about their faith so as to not join other denominations and sects?

Those statistics really don't say anything.

As for EC decline, there are various reasons for that and I, for one, tend to see it in terms of a cultural process of assimilation pressures for the most part.

A 'former Catholic' is also someone who no longer practices his or her faith, but has his or her name recorded on a parish register for having been baptized there.

If we have so many Catholics in North America - then where is what one would expect to be an analogous, strong spiritual impact of such a thriving, spiritual community of committed Christians?

RC missionaries should stay here and evangelize their own people beyond the practice of Sunday Mass (if that).

Don't go to Russia and other places on the pretext that the Latin peoples there need lots more priests. And if you do go, then have some basic respect for the religion/culture of that place.

Have a great day.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Amigo Amado,

The question is - have the RC's who proselytize Orthodox Christians read that document?

Can't speak for the Holy Land - that is Fr. Serge's domain (the Holy Land, not Holy Eire, that is).

As for Russia, I've met various people who showed me pamphlets being distributed (by Catholic nuns and male religious) at gatherings at which Orthodox were present that were overt attempts at proselytization. My in-laws saw this themselves and were quite shocked. When they asked the Latin priest why he wouldn't at least "convert the Orthodox to Eastern Catholicism" he replied that "That isn't my tradition."

Again, I don't see what a plethora of Vatican documents has to do with any of this.

Alex


Dear Alex:

There are quite a few Ukrainian Catholics in Russia.

Why are they not "converting" Russian Orthodox to their own tradition?

The recent "Doctrinal Note" reaffirms what the Catholic Church is doing in Russia and in other non-Catholic countries: receiving non-Catholics, who convert on their own volition, into the fold of the Catholic Church.

Amado

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Dear Amigo Amado,

Actually, Rome doesn't want the UGCC to have too much sway in Ukraine and Russia, lest this cause protests from the ROC.

But when Latin missions go in, that is another matter. The ROC shouldn't be upset by THAT now, should it?

Once again, I thank you for the reading suggestions!

Pax Vobiscum,

Alex

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That's a nice thought, but who should submit their resignation?
The Armenians, the Syriacs, the Latins, the Greeks, the Maronite, the Melkite, etc?

Originally Posted by Ung-Certez
No, I don't think there needs to be duplicate Patriarchs, East or West.

Ung

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
That's a nice thought, but who should submit their resignation?
The Armenians, the Syriacs, the Latins, the Greeks, the Maronite, the Melkite, etc?

Originally Posted by Ung-Certez
No, I don't think there needs to be duplicate Patriarchs, East or West.

Ung


Adding to that, which bishop of Cleveland or Pittsburgh should step down? wink

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