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Kind of like a Divorce? #272059 01/08/08 06:44 PM
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Dandelion Offline OP
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East & West Catholicism is like a divorce in a way.

Dandelion

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Dandelion] #272064 01/08/08 06:53 PM
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Elizabeth Maria Offline
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Schism is a divorce.

It is a serious sin.

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Elizabeth Maria] #272068 01/08/08 07:10 PM
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Dear Friends,

Depends on which side of the fence you are on - the West might think of it as an "annulment!" wink

Happy Birthday Alexis!

Alex

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Dandelion] #272072 01/08/08 08:10 PM
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I can remember how I felt when I was canonically received into the UGCC in May of 1999. Naturally, I was thrilled, but along with that came an unexpected feeling--as though I had suddenly become a child of divorced parents!

It didn't take long for me to figure out why this was, since I was now standing, as it were, with one foot in Rome and one in Constantinople. Prior to that time I was certainly aware of the division between the RCC and the EOC, but now it was as if I found myself right on the line of that division. Both sides were now a part of me and I couldn't separate myself from either one. Native ECs get so used to this that they often don't feel its impact, but for me this was a special blessing--a sign that what I was doing was really God's will.

Naturally, since that time I have been very interested in the reunion of the Churches.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Epiphanius] #272077 01/08/08 08:40 PM
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There have been various disputes and divisions over the life of the church, there is not just one. I think the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches (assuming that is what is meant) while sharing a large amount of commonality, have developed in a way that they differ not only in practice but in dogma. Ultimately I do not view the two positions as able to be reconciled; so I don't view the situation as a divorce as such where the two could just come back together.

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Dandelion] #272093 01/08/08 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dandelion
East & West Catholicism is like a divorce in a way.


I agree.

The two sides always were different, but they were also complementary. And I still think that they are complementary. In discovering Orthodoxy, I discovered the "other half" of the Church.

However, the Orthodox and Catholic churches have grown so different since their 1000 year long divorce (and before) that I doubt they can become reunited in any time soon.

Neverthless, this Forum demonstrates that we can get together and talk in charity. And that in itself is a good thing. And it is perhaps a stepping stone to something greater in the future.

Peace,

-- John

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: harmon3110] #272100 01/09/08 12:05 AM
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Well, since the Catholic Church does not believe in divorce, you would have to term the situation an annulment. wink

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: AMM] #272155 01/09/08 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by AMM
There have been various disputes and divisions over the life of the church, there is not just one.
Andrew,

Yes, but it is generally acknowledged that the RCC-EOC split is the principal one. It is often speculated that if this one could be healed, the others would follow suit.

Originally Posted by AMM
I think the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches (assuming that is what is meant) while sharing a large amount of commonality, have developed in a way that they differ not only in practice but in dogma. Ultimately I do not view the two positions as able to be reconciled ...

As you're probably aware, "... what is impossible with men is possible with God." (c.f. Mt.19:26, Mk.10:27, Lk.18:27). I would hasten to point out that every official Church pronouncement necessarily contains a part that is from God and a part that is from men--even if only because of the fact that it is expressed in human words and concepts. This does not mean that the part that is from men is bad, only that it is subject to misinterpretation, even by those who accept the pronouncement.

The Immaculate Conception is a good example. The EOC rejects this, primarily on the grounds that it is based on the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin, which declares all of Adam's descendants to have received the "stain" of his sin at their conception. However, this doctrine can be understood as nothing more than the RCC's traditional way of explaining the more fundamental doctrine that all men stand in need of salvation. Now we have a standpoint from which a common ground could be reached regarding OS, from which the IC could then be addressed. Since the EOC already confesses Mary to be "most pure" and "without stain," this actually seems possible.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Epiphanius] #272159 01/09/08 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
As you're probably aware, "... what is impossible with men is possible with God." (c.f. Mt.19:26, Mk.10:27, Lk.18:27). I would hasten to point out that every official Church pronouncement necessarily contains a part that is from God and a part that is from men--even if only because of the fact that it is expressed in human words and concepts. This does not mean that the part that is from men is bad, only that it is subject to misinterpretation, even by those who accept the pronouncement.


Indeed all things are possible with God.

Quote
The Immaculate Conception is a good example. The EOC rejects this, primarily on the grounds that it is based on the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin, which declares all of Adam's descendants to have received the "stain" of his sin at their conception. However, this doctrine can be understood as nothing more than the RCC's traditional way of explaining the more fundamental doctrine that all men stand in need of salvation. Now we have a standpoint from which a common ground could be reached regarding OS, from which the IC could then be addressed. Since the EOC already confesses Mary to be "most pure" and "without stain," this actually seems possible.


In this one particular instance cited, I would say I would have to disagree. It's certainly been discussed many times though.

I guess ultimately the divorce analogy doesn't work for me because it implies an incompleteness on the part of the church which I don't believe to be the case.

Last edited by AMM; 01/09/08 04:12 AM.
Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: AMM] #272176 01/09/08 05:35 AM
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Annulment noun.
1. the act or process of annulling or declaring void.
2. the state or condition of being annulled; cancellation; invalidation.
Ex. An annulment of the marriage was granted by the court because the marriage was illegal.
Divorce, noun, verb,
1. the legal ending of a marriage.
2. (Figurative.) a separation.
Ex. In this country there is a complete divorce of government and religion.
v.t. 1. to end legally a marriage between.
Ex. The judge divorced Mr. and Mrs. Jones.
2. to separate from by means of a divorce.
Ex. She divorced her husband.
3. (Figurative.) to separate.
Ex. In sports, exercise and play are not divorced.
v.i. to separate by means of a divorce.
Ex.
noun 1. the legal ending of a marriage.
2. (Figurative.) a separation.

Why? based upon what......

(irreconcilable differences)

Irreconcilable, adjective, noun.
adj. that cannot be reconciled; that cannot be made to agree; opposed.
Ex. irreconcilable enemies, irreconcilable statements. Good and evil are irreconcilable.
noun a person who persists in opposing.
noun irreconcilableness.
adv. irreconcilably.

Reconcile

Reconcile,transitive verb, -ciled, -ciling.
1a. to make friends again.
Ex. The children had quarreled but were soon reconciled. Being all now good friends, for common danger ... had effectually reconciled them (Daniel Defoe).
b. to win over.
Ex. to reconcile a hostile person.
2. to settle (a quarrel or difference).
Ex. The teacher had to reconcile disputes among her pupils.
3. to make agree; bring into harmony.
Ex. It is impossible to reconcilehis story with the facts. There is need for a procedure for reconciling power needs and environmental protection (Joseph C. Swidler).
4. to make satisfied; make no longer opposed.

How?

* Finding common grounds "agreements"

Dandelion





Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Dandelion] #272191 01/09/08 06:55 AM
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An annulment means the marriage never existed.

So there would be no hope of reunion.

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Secret Squirrel] #272200 01/09/08 08:40 AM
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Not so! The Catholic Church allows for divorice, it does not allow for remarriage.
Stephanos I

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Stephanos I] #272211 01/09/08 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
Not so! The Catholic Church allows for divorice, it does not allow for remarriage.
Stephanos I

So are you saying they can't get married again?

Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Secret Squirrel] #272218 01/09/08 01:14 PM
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Retrovert - go back to a previous state; "We reverted to the old rules"
revert, turn back, regress, return


RETROUVAILLE-

The word retrouvaille (pronounced re-tro-vi with a long i) is a French word meaning rediscovery. The program teaches attending couples how to use communication tools to help rediscover life in their relationship.


Re: Kind of like a Divorce? [Re: Elizabeth Maria] #272224 01/09/08 02:10 PM
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Dear Elizabeth Maria,

With respect to "annulments" in the RC Church, the criticism from traditionalists is precisely that it is a "divorce by another name."

Alex

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