The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Randy Danielson, TAFrazer, PNCC Random Guy, Coldstream, CA_Avgvstinus
5,768 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (Randy Danielson), 94 guests, and 41 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,056
Posts414,078
Members5,768
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
It will soon be one year since the Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America has mandated the RDL. How is your Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parish doing post-RDL? Has the attendance at your services increased or decreased? How is the congregational singing at your parish?

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Ung

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Job Offline
Cantor
Member
Offline
Cantor
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Glad you started this thread Ung...I know after the initial "heat" I'm interested in how the implementation has gone...

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
...Well,

My home parish has been using a hybrid liturgy, priest parts are the RDL translation, changeable parts are still the Levkulic book(tropars, kondaks. And we are a elder parish, so we are in the red and not black as far as the size of the congregation.

Ung

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 114
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 114
For our parish in St. Louis, the RDL was actually a good thing: it gave those of us who grew up in other Ruthenian churches a chance to pull the mission toward the east. Several of us "newcomers" (not to the Byzantine church, but to St. Louis) wanted to change things a bit (I'm NOT talking about the Liturgy), and "Look this is new to ALL of us, but we've got to do it" was a good excuse to bring up some other minor issues we wanted to discuss. All in all, our singing has much improved (our cantor + five or six actually meet to practice occasionally).

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 135
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 135
The Revised Divine Liturgy is a disaster nearly everywhere. In the Archeparchy there are about a dozen parishes that refuse to even consider using the books (good for them!). Passaic and Parma each have about 8 or 9 parishes that have shelved the Pew Books and replaced them with home made text only pamphlets. Some use the Revised Text. Some use a hybrid of the Revised Text and the 1964 text. I know of a few parishes in Parma that have published their own texts and that they contain the full Divine Liturgy. I know of numerous parishes where the books are in the pews but the cantors sing the new words to the old music. I know of cantors who have quit. I know parishes that sort of take the RDL on Sundays but on weekdays take the 1964 texts and music. Singing is pretty bad everywhere. Lots of people don't come anymore.

Bishop John Kudrick seems to realize that the RDL is a disaster. Archbishop Basil won't talk about it. Bishop Skurla could care less. Rumors have it that Bishop John will be one of those who topple it. There is a lot of talk now of how the whole liturgical commission didn't want the RDL and how they had to be "obedient" to Bishop Pataki. That is not accurate. But now that Bishop Pataki is retired there is a good chance that a groundswell of voices from the clergy and faithful could topple the RDL now. If they don't speak now it could take years.

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 71
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 71
Although the older parishoners would prefer to keep the Church Slavonic, those attending the English are doing well in the conversion. I have observed an increase in attendance of our English Liturgy and in more people attempting to participate, especially the youth. Having the music with the text is a huge aid.

Without physical backup as to which 12 parishes here are refusing to use the RDL and which 8 parishes there (and by name)are refusing to comply, I view these accusations the same as those from those individuals who contend they will not attend the liturgy because it takes more than one hour. Our Liturgy continues to be one of the most beautiful on earth and we need to think about the parable of the mustard seed. We should open our hearts to the word of God, not cover them with weeds because of change.



Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 407
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 407
Originally Posted by John Damascene
Bishop John Kudrick seems to realize that the RDL is a disaster. Archbishop Basil won't talk about it. Bishop Skurla could care less. Rumors have it that Bishop John will be one of those who topple it.


On another thread you stated:

Quote
Schott and Kudrick speak with contempt about the Ruthenian Liturgy. They are embarrassed by it.


And when asked for proof, you responded with:

Quote
Spend 10 minutes in conversation about the Ruthenian recension with any of them and you will have your proof.


Which is it? Does Bishop John have contempt for the Ruthenian recension or not?

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Job Offline
Cantor
Member
Offline
Cantor
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Quote
Bishop John Kudrick seems to realize that the RDL is a disaster. Archbishop Basil won't talk about it. Bishop Skurla could care less. Rumors have it that Bishop John will be one of those who topple it. There is a lot of talk now of how the whole liturgical commission didn't want the RDL and how they had to be "obedient" to Bishop Pataki.


That seems pretty accurate from an outsiders perspective...

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Originally Posted by Mikey Stilts
Which is it? Does Bishop John have contempt for the Ruthenian recension or not?

The first time he says, "Ruthenian Liturgy" meaning "RDL".

The second time he says, "Ruthenian Recension".

Two different things.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
No offense intended but I will not celebrate this big mess. Instead I'll celebrate a non -feminized Liturgy somewhere else.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
I've never even attended that service, and have no intention of so doing.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
When I married a Ruthenian I thought it was better than the new mass and I liked the idea that they gave Communion to babies. Then I got to know the monks at Holy Resurection monastery and a Melkite priest and I realized how rich the East was. I have fallen in love with it. The parish that we were at I am sorry to say, didn't teach me a thing about being Eastern. When the new liturgy came out I could see how sad and angry the Latin folks were. This has been talked about at length but it has been such a huge problem to deal with.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by Mikey Stilts
Which is it? Does Bishop John have contempt for the Ruthenian recension or not?

Fair questions all around.

I do not think that our bishops are in any way contemptuous of the official Ruthenian recension. I do think that they - like so many in our Church - do not know it well enough to understand what a jewel it is. Because they do not know it for the jewel it is they do not realize the harm they have done to it with their Revision.

I remain positive for the future, as I have seen over and over how people fall in love with the official Ruthenian Liturgy once they finally experience it. I have been told that the three of our bishops who made the pilgrimage to Europe for the Anniversary of the Death of the Blessed Bishop Theodore were astounded at seeing the full Ruthenian Liturgy celebrated, and how attractive it was. I have also been told that Bishop John was a fantastic celebrant of the Slavonic Hierarchical Divine Liturgy while there. Given that he did not grow up with it he must have spent a lot of time in preparation. That alone might cause him to fall in love with the official Liturgy and allow it in his diocese. That could be enough of a catalyst for the Church to finally reject the RDL and all similar re-inventions of the Liturgy and finally embrace the jewel that is our official Liturgy.

So please keep hoping and praying! Some day we will have the full Ruthenian Liturgy, in an accurate translation, and with good music.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
D
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
Some feedback from Holy Ghost BC Parish in Jessup, Pa. (near Scranton). Usually, my son and I serve in the Altar while my wife and daughter are in the nave. We have excellent cantors who have a strong knowledge of music. They go completely with the new books, and sing the music as it is written. I actually like some of the things which Prof. Thompson has done. Much of the music is closer to the original Slavonic melodies (i.e.some of the "Svjatyj Boze" melodies). However, both my wife and daughter indicate that most people do not use the new books, and many have stopped singing. When the new books were first issued, many tried to follow, but found them too cumbersome, and stopped using them. There was a negative reaction against the absence of hymns in the books. I noticed that, just the other day, there were a few people attempting to follow the pew book, but they were visitors. I have heard some negative reaction about the translational changes. Some don't like the "inclusive" language (include me with that crowd). Others question the use of a Greek term (Theotokos)where most don't know Greek. I like the use of that term, because that is the title given to the Holy Virgin by the Council of Ephesus. Personally, I really don't like the supression of a full celebration as envisioned by the Rescension. Unfortunately, most of our parishioners don't know, or can barely remember, what a full celebration according to the Ruthenian Rescension is like, because they never have seen it in our Church (various priests over the years have taken fuller or less fuller celebrations, but I doubt that any of them went strictly according to the Rescension-because bishops have enshrined, by granting permission to celebrate, a "chopped" version of the Liturgy), or it has been a very
long time since they saw it, so it is not really an issue with them. Many of them do show up at various OCA, ACROD, (and ROCOR) Orthodox functions in the area, such as the annual Memorial Day pilgrimage celebrations at St. Tikhon's Monastery/Seminary. Many of them have relatives in those jurisdictions. Those celebrations are the closest thing to the Ruthenian Rescension liturgical prescriptions that they see (but they may not be aware of the connection). Hope this gives an accurate picture.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
We report to Parma and have been following the RDL long before the mandate to switch over. Most people in our Parish use the books and I validate that claim with the fact you can hear massive page flipping when the times come (ex: Since there are seven or eight versions, the "Our Father" is a big flipping event) .. We have been paying a professional cantor to help us, but she has no Byzantine roots and tries to follow the music out of the book, which doesn't translate well. When she doesn't show up, the whole of the church is filled with a low rumbling of people who really don't and can't sing the changes, but we try. Our Parish is nearly 100 years old, but no one currently attending can sing these changes. I know personaly if my Parish wasn't founded by my Great Grandparents I would take my Family and leave (there is a Ukraian Church in town also.) As to the people, we really haven't lost any, and in fact we might have gained two or three regs. This has nothing to do with the book, but more with us as a parish trying to re-gain our footing on being a Parish who cares about the community.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5