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Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church #273393 01/16/08 03:37 AM
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Halia12 Offline OP
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Please take note when reading this, that it is the opinion of one specific bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Quote
Interview of Bishop Artemije of Raska and Prizren to daily Danas

(related part translated from serbianpolicy site)

http://srpskapolitika.com/Tekstovi/Analize/2008/003.html

Q: It is well-known you aren't an ecumenist. What is your opinion about the Ravenna statement adopted by members of joint theological commission of Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.

A: Why wouldn't we say the other way – I'm against ecumenism because I think such a fashion of ecumenism is damaging the purity of Orthodox Faith and will not lead to the healthy union of Christians, than to dilution of the Orthodox Faith and weakening the piousness of the Orthodox Christians. Though Ravenna Document is available, the hierarchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church have not been officially informed by those present in Ravenna what happened there, what was signed, what the paper actually means and what competencies and to whom it
offers. In any case, I think that the fashion that some representatives of Serbian Orthodox Church, regardless empowered or not, signed on our behalf something without the authorization of the Council or Synod, is not binding to anyone in Serbian Orthodox Church, as long as it didn't pass through the meeting
of the Holy Council.

Q: Generally speaking, what's the attitude of SOC about the primacy of Bishop of Rome, although the Ravenna Statement isn't explicit if it was primacy of honor only, or of authority, too.

A: It is absolutely unacceptable to any Orthodox soul, not only for the entire SOC, since when we speak about Papal primacy we know it is only one of the reasons causing Roman Catholic Church to apostate from the Church of Christ in 1054. Among the other, never have the Bishop of Rome had the primacy in the Orthodox Church in the sense that's been applied by Roman Catholics today and tried to be imposed on everybody else. As the Bishop of Rome, he had the primacy of honor for the significance of the city where he resided, which was the capital of the Empire in Christ's time, the entire known world of that time.
We cannot even speak about the issue of honor today, because he is not a bishop of the Church until the unity in Faith is achieved. The unity in faith between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox is still very distant.

Q: One could conclude there are various theological views within Orthodoxy about co-operation with RCC, since Orthodox theologians participated in the works of Joint-Commission while the document has been harshly criticized by their brothers.

A: There exist only those persistent in their exposition of Faith and those ready for various kinds of compromise and economia. Many Orthodox participants at those ecumenical gatherings are not confessors of their faith, accordingly,
they can't represent the teaching of the Orthodox Church. If they were really representatives of the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Faith, they would, above all, listen to the Apostle Paul whom says: “stay away from a heretic upon first
and second approach”. How long are we going to attend those dialogues, commissions – until eternity? Are we counseling there those in heresy, in error? No, we are seeking the compromise with them. True love of a Christian is to provide eternal life to a neighbor, meaning one needs to say straightforwardly and frankly that another one is in error and try to get him
back to the truth and direct him to the path towards salvation. Approving someone to remain in his error is not love, it is hatred of a man, according to St. Maximos the Confessor.

Q:If you say that the unity can be reached only if another party repents, Roman Catholics say that “nobody is sinless” - how could that be solved?

A: Nobody is sinless in the sense of personal sins, but in the sense of confession of the Faith, the Orthodox Church have erred nothing. That's the Church of Apostles, Church of the Fathers, Church of Ecumenical Councils, holding the truth once delivered by Lord Christ, through the Apostles which was delivered to us unhampered, while there is no doubt that Roman Catholic Church
in many segments of Faith and particular dogmas is away from the right path.
Without the unity in Truth, in true Faith, is not possible to speak about the Bishop of Rome at all, even less about his primacy – either of honor or of authority.

Q: How could Orthodox know they erred nothing?

A:From the history of Church, from the teaching of the Holy Fathers, Holy Canons, Ecumenical Councils. It isn't an arbitrary allegation, than the continuity through two thousand years, proving this is the Faith preached by Lord Christ and Holy Apostles.



Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Halia12] #273414 01/16/08 05:14 AM
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Slavipodvizhnik Offline
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Much like Pope Benedict terming the Orthodox Church "defective". At least the rhetoric has stopped, the "2 lung" nonsense has been put behind us and we can face each other in reality as opposed to some rose colored pipe dream. Good for Vladika Artemije! Mnogaya Leta!

Alexandr

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #273423 01/16/08 06:33 AM
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A Simple Sinner Offline
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Much like Pope Benedict terming the Orthodox Church "defective". At least the rhetoric has stopped, the "2 lung" nonsense has been put behind us and we can face each other in reality as opposed to some rose colored pipe dream. Good for Vladika Artemije! Mnogaya Leta!

Alexandr


The personal opinions of Vladika Artemije firmly puts to bed the "'2 lung' nonsense" for you does it?

I am not surprised, Alexandr. Not to mix metaphors too much further, but that "rose colored pipe dream" of our much beloved Pope was likely too much a barrell full of canned monkeys skating on thin ice for you to have much taste for to begin with.

Good thing it is not for you and I to decide.

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: A Simple Sinner] #273428 01/16/08 08:05 AM
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Marian Offline
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Quote
Please take note when reading this, that it is the opinion of one specific bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church.


If I remember well, Father Archimadrite (from Serbia) Justin Popovich said that the ecumenism would be a heresy. In Romania, Father Dumitru Staniloae said that the ecumenism is the biggest heresy of the 20th century. Despite of certain shown openings, the Orthodoxy is her vastity is at least meditative when it is about ecumenism. Perhaps after a Pan-Orthodox Synod many would be clearer.

God have much mercy upon this world. Many sufferings there are.

M+

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Halia12] #273429 01/16/08 09:51 AM
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I agree with His Excellency’s statement. The basic point, in my opinion, is threefold.

(1) The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are distinctive because each has its own beliefs and its own traditions.

(2) We are separate churches because some of those beliefs and practices are fundamentally incompatible. And the ultimate belief that we fundamentally disagree upon is Papal Primacy. Catholics accept it; the rest of us don't.

(3) Furthermore, those issues are fundamental to our identity as churches. If we jettison or modify those to the point that we don't disagree anymore, we would have also destroyed that which makes us distinctive.

Now, I like what makes us distinctive. I believe in that which makes us distinctive.

Hence, any more, I am not an ecumenist: if ecumenism means giving up our different beliefs and our distinctive churches. I don't see Catholics giving up their belief in the papacy, and I don't see Orthodox choosing to accept the papacy, and I don't see either side giving in on a host of other important issues. The point is: they (we) shouldn't have to.

When I was a Roman Catholic, I found such an idea baffling. I sometimes used to think: What's up with those Orthodox? And what about those Protestants? Why don't they want to be one church (with us) ?

Now that I am no longer a Catholic (Roman or otherwise), I think I understand it a bit better. They (we) don't want to become Catholic because we don't believe certain teachings of the Catholic faith, and we don't practice certain parts of the Catholic tradition, because we have our own beliefs and traditions. They (we) like having our own beliefs and traditions, and we don't want to give them up. Also, they (we) like being our own churches with our own identity: to embody and express and continue our own beliefs and traditions. Hence, they (we) are a little bit leery of the papacy when it calls for reunion: because they (we) fear we would lose our identity, our beliefs and our traditions. In short, they (we) prefer having our own beliefs, traditions and identities more than union with the papacy. We are willing to be good neighbors with the Catholics --with genuine charity and good will-- but we are not willing to move into the same house.

Finally, some Catholic are concerned with the Lord’s prayer that we should all be one, as He and the Father are One. Specifically, some Catholics conclude that this means we must all belong to the same religious organization (the Catholic Church).

In reply, I would merely add my unworthy comment: some of us non-Catholics disagree. Some believe their own Church is right, that everyone else is wrong, and that everyone else should join their church. But most of us (including myself) have a different view, because religious tolerance is a basic necessity for everyday life in our pluralistic times.

It is a more nuanced and pragmatic view. Namely: we all believe that our different religions and churches are true, so let us agree to disagree, and let us behave towards each other with respect, morality and compassion. In that sense --the unity of our diversity is our tolerance, morality and love for each other-- we can reflect the love that unites the different Persons of the Trinity.

Be well.

-- John


Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Marian] #273431 01/16/08 09:53 AM
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Bishop Artemije would do very well to read the prophetic sermon of Patriarch Pavle preached during the Divine Liturgy which celebrated the reconciliation and healing of the terrible schism within the diaspora Serbian Orthodox Church that began in the nineteen-sixties.

Divisions such as that, let alone the Great Schism, invariably cause both sides to suffer from various forms of "defectiveness".

What is wrong with the analogy of two lungs, and who has put that analogy behind us?

One of my own defects, if you like, is that I have not forgotten Dumitru Staniloe's bare-faced and mendacious efforts to justify the Communist suppression of the Greek-Catholic Church in Romania. But then, another of my "defects" is a strong preference for the Julian Calendar and a strong admiration for the Old-Calendar Orthodox Church in Romania, which is not complicit in persecuting anyone.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #273435 01/16/08 10:48 AM
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Father Dumitru Staniloae was a true man of the Holy Orthodox Church. He wrote a book expressing his thought about Ardeal, uniatism and all that history; anyone can agree or disagree his thoughts; he was born in the south of Ardeal and it is much history there. But not for justifying the communist suppression of the Greek-Catholic Church. He was in the communist jail, being witness of Christ. No Holy Church can be persecuting, Church is the body of Christ, the shown and the unseen community of all, alive or asleep. If there were people persecuting, from one or other Church, this is different.

Father Staniloae is kept in souls as a fine translator of the Philokalia, his adnotations at Philokalia are his best work, continuing a tradition in these lands, from St. Paisie Velicikovski and all his disciples from Neamt, with their Dobrotoliubie and so on. Briefly said.

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: harmon3110] #273436 01/16/08 10:55 AM
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Brother John,

There are many issues as papacy etc. The Holy Orthodox Church and the Holy Romano-Catholic Church would rather focus on promoting very much the family, the life, the normality, the Holy Evangelia and Christ. Fruitful dialogs.

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Marian] #273464 01/16/08 02:10 PM
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Dear Friends,

One thing that can and should be said about the position outlined above by the Serbian Orthodox Vladyka is that he is very clear about boundaries and truth.

My ecumenical environment was all about watering down such things, pretending that we are all one already and that the "walls of separation" have been broken.

The end result is that one doesn't quite know what to believe and loses one's religious/spiritual identity.

There was a letter published in our Basilian "The Light" magazine years ago that said that if it is true that "all churches are in the right" then, the letter-writer said, "Why in heaven's name must we continue to be attached to the Catholic Church - one may get married as many times as one wishes in other churches etc."

Indeed.

Alex

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Marian] #273499 01/16/08 04:56 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Since the Church is theandric, it is unfortunately possible for her to commit sins - one of which is complicity in persecutions. Since I gather you are in Romania often, may I suggest a visit to the Metropolitan of Bielaia Krinitsa (who lives in Braila)? His Eminence can tell you quite a lot about what the Russian State Church did to the Old Ritualists.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #273501 01/16/08 05:11 PM
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I know some Western Rite Orthodox who would beg to differ with your opinion of the two lung theory being "nonsense".

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: MrsMW] #273529 01/16/08 08:53 PM
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I know some Orthodox who would doubt the Orthodoxy of Western Rites.. I disagree with them, but some are vehemently anti-WR..

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Michael_Thoma] #273530 01/16/08 09:06 PM
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Alexandr's church supports the WR Rite, I don't think that's what he was getting at (though I don't speak for him). I think he was commenting on the ecclesiological principle that is commonly assumed to underly the "two-lung" idea.

I'm also failing to see what Romania has to do with Bishop Artemije's comments.

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: AMM] #273559 01/16/08 11:35 PM
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Halia12 Offline OP
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In Romania, Father Dumitru Staniloae said that the ecumenism is the biggest heresy of the 20th century.

Dear Marian,
I am surprised to read this because I greatly admired Staniloae.
Can you please provide me with the exact quote and book where it is printed. Other than the suppression of the Greek catholic Church in Romania, the Orthodox Church is Romania has been known for its participatiion in the World Council of Churches and in particular with the Anglican Church going back to the early days of the 20th century.
It would be interesting for me to read the exact context in which Staniloae made this statement you quote.
Thank you.

Re: Ravenna Statement and Serbian Orthodox Church [Re: Halia12] #273631 01/17/08 08:28 AM
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You can hear what exactly said Father Dumitru here . It is subtitled in English.

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Other than the suppression of the Greek catholic Church in Romania, the Orthodox Church is Romania has been known for its participatiion in the World Council of Churches and ...


Shall I understand that the Orthodox Church in Romania is known for two matters? Why this word suppression?

A meditative time.

However, I have nothing to say anymore, because I want to respect the topic of this subforum: Church News. I ask forgiveness to the administrators and moderators.

M+

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