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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Feb 2002
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+ Vo imja Otca, i Syna, i Ducha Swatiego!
Ung
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It would be appropriate, at the very least, for Great Russians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns. Gee, what about the "not-so-great" Russians?????? Христос Родився! Славіти Його!
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Jean Francois
The Spis region of Slovakia (Spisz in Polish) was part of Poland at one time. In fact for a good part of the 19th century, the language spoken there was still closer to Polish than Slovak.
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The Spish County area that borders Poland is at the confluence of the Rusyn, Slovak, German, and Polish ethnographic territories. See the Professor Tomashiv'skyj Uhro-Rus map from c.1906
Ung
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Our friend Alex is quite right when he referred to Polish cultural development. In Poland's distant past, there was quite a bit of German influence. Many laws were fashioned after those enacted in German-speaking lands. The long-died out Piast ruing house had ties to the Hungarian royalty. In the partition of Poland, most Poles found themselves under the rule of Germany or Austria-Hungary.
Just a few years ago, I made a casual statement to my Polish grandmother about Poles being Slavic.
WE ARE NOT SLOVAK! was her reply.
"Grandma, I didn't say that. I said Polish people are Slavic."
WE ARE NOT! WE ARE JUST POLISH! YOU DON'T KNOW!
It was obvious I wasn't going to get my point across with her.
For what it's worth, I'm American. Half my ancestry is Polish, of which I'm proud, but it would be silly of me to say I'm Polish as someone who lives in Krakow or Wadowice.
I check the English language polskie.pl website almost every morning. From what I read, Poland isn't interested in re-creating the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or grabbing a big chunk of Byelorussia, Ukraine and Slovakia. Poles are a lot more interested in economic growth. Poland's biggest foreign policy concerns are Vladimir Putin, the US missile defense issue, Iraq and Ukranian integration into the EU. Whatever enmities existed between Poles and Ukranians decades or centuries ago, the Polish government seems to be genuinely interested in maintaining good ties with Ukraine these days.
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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This thesis is being defended at the University of Pittsburgh in case anyone is curious. It is very thourough and may have significant implications on the future boundourial geography of modern Europe. Христос Родився! Славіти Його! Nothing personal, but every graduate student feels that his research will change the world. I think the desire of people in former communist lands to have their country join the EU is of greater significance to them because of their economic needs at the moment, than a thesis written in English in the USA. Ah, doctoral thesis. not a graduate thesis. It isn't written entirely in English either and the man who wrote it is connected in the EU. He has dual-citizenship, and a lot of his research was conducted in the old country. Most of the documents, etc.. are in fact located in the old world. I highly doubt you can inter-library loan a 400 year old document from Warsaw.
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 01/17/08 02:27 AM.
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This thesis is being defended at the University of Pittsburgh in case anyone is curious. It is very thourough and may have significant implications on the future boundourial geography of modern Europe. Христос Родився! Славіти Його! Nothing personal, but every graduate student feels that his research will change the world. I think the desire of people in former communist lands to have their country join the EU is of greater significance to them because of their economic needs at the moment, than a thesis written in English in the USA. Ah, doctoral thesis. not a graduate thesis. It isn't written entirely in English either and the man who wrote it is connected in the EU. He has dual-citizenship, and a lot of his research was conducted in the old country. Most of the documents, etc.. are in fact located in the old world. I highly doubt you can inter-library loan a 400 year old document from Warsaw. And we come full circle to where I again ask: What are the implications of all this, or what does it matter? If the wildest accusations are true, what does it change? Yes, it has been pointed out that it could lead to a certain amount of protest & bickering. Protestors and bickerors you will always have with you... What does it change though? It has been explained to me by such & such a party here that my Hungarian Greek Catholic Grandmother was in fact a Magyarized Rusyn. Maybe. Maybe not. OK. What does that change??? I admit it, I am dense... so sorry if this has been answered and I just didn't grasp it... and how American of me, but if tomorrow I woke up to find out I was adopted and from totally different ethnic stock than I previously believed... I would still be the same loveable/hateable/can't-standable me... So tomorrow every Slav comes to understand he is a Pole... ... the Irish are the lost tribes of Israel... ... Black Americans are really melanonin rich Swedes... ... my sister is 75% Japanese/25% Euro instead of 25% Japanese/75% Euro... What does that change??? This stuff exasperates me.
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This should be settled once and for all on an episode of Jerry Springer. America must know, are Slovakians really Poles?
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I check the English language polskie.pl website almost every morning. From what I read, Poland isn't interested in re-creating the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or grabbing a big chunk of Byelorussia, Ukraine and Slovakia. Poles are a lot more interested in economic growth. Poland's biggest foreign policy concerns are Vladimir Putin, the US missile defense issue, Iraq and Ukranian integration into the EU. Whatever enmities existed between Poles and Ukranians decades or centuries ago, the Polish government seems to be genuinely interested in maintaining good ties with Ukraine these days. As Lech Walesa the leader of the Polish labor union Solidarity has said on many occassions: "Without a free Ukraine, there will not be a free Poland". I.F.
Last edited by Jean Francois; 01/17/08 05:50 AM.
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The Tasmanians were in fact a lost Polish garrison.
Fr. Serge
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Orthodox domilsean Member
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Thank God no one has brought up the English!
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Dear Friends,
The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, at one point, used the Ruthenian language as its official language.
The fact that the Crown of Poland had an empire did NOT mean that all the peoples that inhabited it were Polish (as the thesis noted appears to imply).
In fact, we know that many Polish kings wrote to their Ukrainian subjects (to their Church leaders) in Ukrainian and were primarily concerned with peace in their Empire in the first instance.
This is why when the Union of Brest did not achieve the goal of bringing all the Ruthenians into the RC Church (thereby effectively and completely Polonizing them) but created tensions between EC's and the Orthodox, the Poles became quite "anti-Brest" as noted in the letters of Lev Sapiha to St Josaphat.
(BTW, my wife is a direct descendant of Sapiha . . . goes to figure . . .).
Both Poland and Russia today, however, look longingly back at their former imperial greatness.
Our Polish community here still sings of the times when Lviv was "Lwow nash" and the song "If I had a chance to be born again, I would only want to be born in Lwow!"
And one of the greatest opponents against the canonization of Met. Andrei Sheptytsky is the Polish Catholic hierarchy.
The University of Krakow has published two "scholarly" books against Sheptytsky. Whenever Sheptytsky defended his people, BOTH the EC's AND the Orthodox, (e.g. he twice publicly defended the Orthodox people of Volyn when the Poles removed insurance from their parishes thereby allowing hooligans to burn their churches down etc.) - whenever he did this, he was villified by the Poles as a "Ukrainian nationalist." And Polish students would demonstrate in front of his residence at St George's Cathedral in "Lwow" and yell, "Pan Sheptitski na lyatarniu!" or "Mr. Sheptytsky should be hanged!"
So if anyone thinks this fellow isn't serious about what he writes or that there wouldn't get strong support for his views . . .
I've heard too many Ukies from Poland tell me how they were taught in Polish schools about how Ukrainians have "black tongues" and they "all carry switch-blades" so evil they are . . .
Some things don't really change after all.
Alex
Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 01/17/08 08:35 PM.
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Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
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Our Polish community here still sings of the times when Lviv was "Lwow nash" and the song "If I had a chance to be born again, I would only want to be born in Lwow!"
And they pronounce it something like "Wvoof".
And one of the greatest opponents against the canonization of Met. Andrei Sheptytsky is the Polish Catholic hierarchy.
Things never seem to change. It was the current Polish hierarchy which petitioned Angelo Cardinal Sodano to have all of the married UGCC clergy of Peremyshl-Warsaw "sent back" to Ukraine (although they had all been born in Poland), replacing them with Polish celibate priests trained to celebrate the Byzantine-Slavonic Liturgy (imagine how well that would work out). Happily, this whole stupidity was ignored and not enforced by Patriarch Lubomyr. Whe first informed of Sodano's "order", the Patriarch responded "that's odd".
The University of Krakow has published two "scholarly" books against Sheptytsky. Whenever Sheptytsky defended his people, BOTH the EC's AND the Orthodox, (e.g. he twice publicly defended the Orthodox people of Volyn when the Poles removed insurance from their parishes thereby allowing hooligans to burn their churches down etc.) - whenever he did this, he was villified by the Poles as a "Ukrainian nationalist." And Polish students would demonstrate in front of his residence at St George's Cathedral in "Lwow" and yell, "Pan Sheptitski na lyatarniu!" or "Mr. Sheptytsky should be hanged!"
I recently read the book published by the Ukrainian Redemptorists on Bishop Nicholas (Charnetsky) and companion martyrs. The author, priest/current superior of the Yorkton Province, Ukrainian Redemptorists, points out that Bishop Nicholas (Charnetsky) was having tremendous success in attracting the residents of Volyn back to the "unia" once that region was transferred to Polish rule, and away from Russian rule. The Polish government, rather than rejoicing over the return of souls to the Catholic Church, saw this as a threat, and something that would breed "Ukrainian Nationalism". They set out to "disrupt the applecart" by burning down Orthodox Churches, thus breeding distrust by Orthodox against the UGCC, who then saw the UGCC as "agents of Poland".
So if anyone thinks this fellow isn't serious about what he writes or that there wouldn't get strong support for his views . . .
I've heard too many Ukies from Poland tell me how they were taught in Polish schools about how Ukrainians have "black tongues" and they "all carry switch-blades" so evil they are . . .
Some things don't really change after all.
No, they don't.
Alex
Last edited by Jessup B.C. Deacon; 01/17/08 09:37 PM.
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I don't doubt that there are bigots in Poland, but to hear that.....
At any rate, Poland is in no shape, militarily or economically, to re-establish any empire that existed over 500 years ago. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Poland has run afoul of the EU because Poland wanted the EU's Day Against the Death Penalty to include opposition to abortion. The Polish government was sued in an EU court because they did not permit the woman to have an abortion. Poland wants to build a highway in an area the EU has designated as a "wilderness preserve" or something like that. Oh, and many Poles have a positive view of the US!
Ronald Reagan is a hero to many Poles!
Yes, indeed, all of that will make the EU look favorably on carving out chunks of Ukraine, Slovakia, and Byelorussia and giving it all to Warsaw.
Again, sorry, not buying it.
The most unfortunate thing about this thread is, once again, sins of the past are dredged up, which seems to take up a lot of space and time on this board.
For the bad and evil things done by Poles and the Polish governments through history, the same things have been done to Poles and Poland.
As referenced by an earlier thread, some English seem none too happy about the number of Poles in the UK.
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The most unfortunate thing about this thread is, once again, sins of the past are dredged up, which seems to take up a lot of space and time on this board. Let's pass the Chicken Kyiv and open a bottle of wine.
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