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#276028 - 01/29/08 11:20 PM Re: Open Question to Father David Petras [Re: EdHash]
SultanOfSuede Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 56
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
5. Note, too, that some have quoted St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:11 “When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.” The Greek word used here is n&#275;pios, which specifically means “little children.” Note also St. Mark 10:15 “Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it." The Greek word used here is pais, which can mean “child” or “servant.” Jesus was often called pais in the very early Church, a usage which was dropped in favor of “uios.” St. John more significantly says, John 1:12 “But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.” Here the Greek word used is teknon, which means more exactly a (young) child. These different Greek words would seem to have a different range of meanings than English, so that some concepts cannot be translated as precisely as we would want.


Thanks for pointing this out Fr. David. I know you were but one voice involved in the commission to reform the Divine Liturgy, but is it your impression that the decision to use children here was not influenced by concerns for gender-inclusivity? Meaning, the choice just seemed to be the best fit for the passage with its gender-neutrality quality being a side effect?

I still think that sonship is very important. Although a layman with some theology training at a graduate level, I'm hardly a biblical scholar by any stretch. However, it strikes me that if we are to be conformed to the Son of God, it should be emphasized in the liturgy.

I'm not getting a grasp on why children was selected, although your post did illustrate the challenges of moving from a language like Greek with so many rich variations and connotations to a more metaphysically-challenged language like English. (And yes, English does have its beauty and strengths.)

Thanks again Father (and bless!)

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#281407 - 03/04/08 09:40 PM Re: Open Question to Father David Petras [Re: Father David]
EdHash Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 747
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Father David
Those who do find peace will be called “children” (or “sons” or even “daughters”) of God.


What did our Lord actually call them when he taught the Beatitudes?

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#281502 - 03/05/08 02:12 PM Re: Open Question to Father David Petras [Re: EdHash]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
"Nor can an Eastern Catholic be technically disobedient to this document."

The document in question is Liturgiam Authenticam. It is not possible for an Eastern Catholic to be technically disobedient to this particular document, because this document has no juridical application to the Eastern Churches.

On this point, Father David is correct.

Nonetheless, when one can easily demonstrate that neither Roman Catholicism nor Eastern Orthodoxy will accept the so-called "inclusive language", it is no more than reasonable to ask why, then, an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction should attempt to enforce such language.

Fr. Serge

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#281505 - 03/05/08 02:30 PM Re: Open Question to Father David Petras [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Recluse Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Serge Keleher
Nonetheless, when one can easily demonstrate that neither Roman Catholicism nor Eastern Orthodoxy will accept the so-called "inclusive language", it is no more than reasonable to ask why, then, an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction should attempt to enforce such language.

Amen father, amen.

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