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Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC #274606 01/22/08 06:29 PM
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Halia12 Offline OP
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I know the MP has a parish in Lviv because I have seen the pictures. I guess the issue is to establish a Cathedral in Lviv. Does anyone know how large a following the MP has in Lviv? Would they be able to fill a cathedral in Lviv?

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Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on Perceived Ukrainian Greek Catholic Jurisdiction
22.01.2008, [17:43] // Inter-Christian relations //

Warsaw-Moscow – In his recent interview with the Polish Catholic Information Agency, Metropolitan Kyryl (Hundiayev) of Smolen and Kaliningrad raised the issue of relations between the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC). Despite the fact that the metropolitan pronounced the existence of the UGCC to be an evident and necessary matter, emphasizing that “the UGCC has existed and should exist; we should not touch nor hinder anyone,” the remainder of his commentary resembled more of a reproach.

In particular, the eparch said that the UGCC should “admit the fact that the Orthodox Church does exist in Ukraine and it should not be weakened. I refer particularly to the situation in western Ukraine’s Halychyna. Also, it is no less important that the UGCC recognize that it emerged as a purely local phenomenon in Western Ukraine under the influence of certain circumstances, and this is the region which should be targeted for pastoral services.”

In connection with this, Metropolitan Kyryl said it was a bitter revelation for the ROC to learn of the transfer of the residence of the Head of the UGCC to Kyiv. The eparch also touched upon the issue of construction of a Cathedral of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) in western Ukraine’s Lviv: “I find it shameful to speak of this, but we still have not been able to obtain land in Lviv for the construction of our church. We were forced out of our churches; we were, quite simply, driven out.”

According to the metropolitan, it is necessary to start a peaceful and sensible dialogue in order to resolve existent problems.


http://ekumenizm.wiara.pl/wydruk.php?grupa=6&art=1194477122&dzi=1153917918&katg

http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=59810&cf=



Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Halia12] #274906 01/23/08 10:49 PM
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A Simple Sinner Offline
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Originally Posted by Halia12
I know the MP has a parish in Lviv because I have seen the pictures. I guess the issue is to establish a Cathedral in Lviv. Does anyone know how large a following the MP has in Lviv? Would they be able to fill a cathedral in Lviv?


On the last point, I suppose filling the cathedral is relative to the size of the cathedral!

On balance, I welcome the bishops comments as a good starting point...

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Halia12] #274946 01/24/08 03:12 AM
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"Driven out"? Weren't these the same churches that the Communists took from the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and turned over to the Moscow Patriarchy?!!!

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Halia12] #274980 01/24/08 07:36 AM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Metropolitan Cyril (Gundiayev) pronounces that the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church should

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“admit the fact that the Orthodox Church does exist in Ukraine and it should not be weakened. I refer particularly to the situation in western Ukraine’s Halychyna. Also, it is no less important that the UGCC recognize that it emerged as a purely local phenomenon in Western Ukraine under the influence of certain circumstances, and this is the region which should be targeted for pastoral services.”


1. The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church will happily confirm that the Orthodox Church exists in Ukraine and should be strengthened. The Greek-Catholic Church is not obliged to "admit" what she has never attempted to deny!

2. It is, however, false to assert that the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church "emerged as a purely local phenomenon in Western Ukraine under the influence of certain circumstances". In 1596 the Metropolitanate of Kyiv accepted the Union of Brest. The resulting arrangement came to be called the Greek-Catholic Church. This included all of Belarus', and much of Ukraine. At the time, the Eparchy of L'viv, the Eparchy of Peremyshl, and the Eparchy of Lutsk did not adhere to the Union of Brest - that happened approximately a century later (the exact year varied in each Eparchy). Successive Tsarist governments made use of the partitions of Poland to suppress the Greek-Catholic Church by force and violence, particularly in the reigns of Peter I, Catherine II, Nicholas I, and Alexander II, with the result that the Church was able to survive openly only in the territory which Austria had received during the partitions of Poland and in the lands belonging to Hungary at the time.

Thus the Greek-Catholic Church's virtual confinement to Western Ukraine is an entirely artificial phenomenon accomplished by Tsarist force and violence, largely in the nineteenth century. The hierarchy, clergy, monastics, and faithful in Western Ukraine never forgot their brothers in the rest of Ukraine and in Belarus', and did what they could to strengthen the underground Church in the Tsarist Empire - the situation is comparable to that of the Priestist Old-Ritualists, who could exist legally and above ground only in the Austrian Empire, but in fact continued in much of the Tsarist Empire as well. Nobody would suggest that the Old-Ritualists today should/must be confined to Bukovina!

3. The assertion that Western Ukraine [alone] "is the region which should be targeted for pastoral services” is tragicomic. Not only did the Greek-Catholic Church never die out in Tsarist territory; in Soviet times the Communists accomplished large-scale demographic changes with the result that significant numbers of Greek-Catholics from Western Ukraine found themselves willy-nilly in every section of Ukraine and also elsewhere in the USSR. We do not expect people to change their religion every time they cross a geographic delineation! Thus if an Orthodox Christian moves house from wherever to L'viv, Philadelphia, Chicago, Toronto, Melbourne, Rome, or any other place where an Orthodox Church is accessible, one assumes that he will attend that Orthodox church. By precisely the same token, if a Greek-Catholic from wherever moves house to Odessa, Kharkiv, Moscow, Saint Petersburg or any other place where a Greek-Catholic church is accessible, one assumes that he will attend that Greek-Catholic church. The Church has not only the right but the obligation to serve her faithful and provide them with pastoral care wherever they may be, which is why we have a parish in Dublin, Ireland, to take only one example.

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Metropolitan Kyryl said it was a bitter revelation for the ROC to learn of the transfer of the residence of the Head of the UGCC to Kyiv.


Excuse me? Kyiv is a good-sized city and the national capital of Ukraine. The Chief Hierarch has the historic title of Kyiv-Halych and All Rus'; that is how Metropolitan Michael (Rahoza) signed the Union of Brest. By establishing his residence there the current Patriarch Lubomyr did not do anything new. Moreover, it is normal for the Chief Hierarch to reside in or near the national capital.

Neither the establishment of the Patriarch's residence in Kyiv nor the construction of the new Cathedral in Kyiv are in any way compelling anyone to do anything (other than someone who wishes to send a letter to Patriarch Lubomyr, and is therefore "compelled" to address the envelope to the Patriarch's current residence). The moving of the residence of the Patriarch, and the construction of the new Cathedral, are all being accomplished at the financial expense of the Greek-Catholics, not at the expense of the Orthodox Christians, or the Ukrainian Government. So what does Metropolitan Cyril find to grieve about?

Then Metropolitan Cyril continues:

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“I find it shameful to speak of this, but we still have not been able to obtain land in Lviv for the construction of our church. We were forced out of our churches; we were, quite simply, driven out.”


1) the Moscow Patriarchate has a church in L'viv, on Korolenko Street;

2) the Moscow Patriarchate had a much larger church in L'viv for their cathedral, on Shcherbakova Street, almost directly across the street from the Ukrainian National Museum. The Patriarchate lost that Church because their Bishop, clergy, and faithful remained with Metropolitan Philaret instead of accepting the administration which Moscow imposed to replace Philaret. That issue and its results have precisely nothing to do with the Greek-Catholic Church. That in turn brings up the reality that the large majority of Eastern Orthodox communities, clergy, and faithful in Western Ukraine adhere to one or another of the Ukrainian Orthodox judicatories striving for autocephaly and want nothing to do with the Moscow Patriarchate.

3) Land prices in L'viv, as elsewhere, have indeed gone up and one can appreciate that the Moscow Patriarchate, with its relatively small flock in L'viv, may find it financially difficult to purchase land if it wishes to build a new cathedral. But that, simply, is not the problem of the Greek-Catholics.

4) Who was driven out of their own Churches? The edifices that Metropolitan Cyril refers to were Greek-Catholic places of worship in 1946, from which the Greek-Catholic clergy and faithful were expelled by Soviet force and violence. A slim majority of those churches in L'viv itself choose to remain Eastern Orthodox, while also disaffiliating from the Moscow Patriarchate. Where needed, the Greek-Catholics built new churches, and are still doing so. If Metropolitan Cyril wants the Moscow Patriarchate to have some sort of access to the historic church edifices which remain in Orthodox hands in L'viv, let him try to make peace and reconciliation with the Ukrainian Orthodox judicatories instead of hurling anathemas at them. In no sense is this the responsibility of the Greek-Catholics.

The Metropolitan wants to start a peaceful and sensible dialogue to resolve existing problems. By all means, but this cannot be done by presenting the Moscow Patriarchate as the victim when she is in fact the aggressor. Let her cease to claim that the 1946 atrocity was somehow "canonical"; let her disavow the persecution and recognize that every Church has the right and obligation to provide pastoral care for her own faithful, wherever they may be, and let her try in other ways to lay the basis for a peaceful, sensible dialogue. Let her also keep appointments, return telephone calls, and stop calling people names.

All this really is a cause of grief. Metropolitan Cyril is one of the best hierarchs in the Moscow Patriarchate. His Eminence knows better than to talk such nonsense. If even he finds it incumbent upon him to spout such lies, to whom in the Moscow Patriarchate can we look to find simple honesty?

Fr. Serge

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #275018 01/24/08 03:55 PM
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Once again it appears that while the MP wants a cathedral and strengthened presence in Western Ukraine, she still sees the UGCC as belonging to a Western Ukrainian ghetto that should not be allowed outside of the reservation.
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Also, it is no less important that the UGCC recognize that it emerged as a purely local phenomenon in Western Ukraine under the influence of certain circumstances, and this is the region which should be targeted for pastoral services.”


This speaks volumes - certainly Patriarch Lubomyr has gone out of his way to not imply or state that MP activity should be confined to points east of the Dnipro. No, the UGCC recognizes the historic reality, fully, that it was the Metropolitanate of Kyiv that voted to accept the Union of Brest, and not a couple of Hutsul village priests in a vacuum.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Diak] #275026 01/24/08 05:00 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Given the view that the Greek-Catholic Church should be confined to Galicia, and should not expand to Kyiv, it's a bit rich for Metropolitan Cyril in the same breath to complain that the Moscow Patriarchate is having difficulty finding land on which to build their proposed new cathedral in L'viv! If they can build a cathedral in L'viv, why may we not build a cathedral in Kyiv? No one in either city can coerce anyone into attending a church that he does not wish to attend [with the possible exception of children who may think that they don't wish to attend any church, but whose parents have the presence of mind to bring them to church without offering them the chance to bow out!].

Fr. Serge

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #275072 01/24/08 07:57 PM
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Bless, Father Archimandrite!

Please do calm down! It is most distressing to see an Irishman defend the UGCC much better than any Ukrainian can!

However, to be fair to the ROC, Rome's ecumenical theologians and hierarchs, like Cardinal Kasper, would have little problem officially and publicly accepting the ROC view of UGCC history and current reality.

In fact, Rome's eagerness to work in tandem with it proves that it truly does.

In the end, the ROC's position is not surprising. Rome's truly is.

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 01/24/08 08:00 PM.
Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #275099 01/24/08 10:56 PM
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The blessing of the Lord!

Having just watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding, I'm feeling quite calm, thanks.

I fear that I find Cardinal Kasper's opinions uninteresting.

Fr. Serge

Last edited by Serge Keleher; 01/24/08 10:56 PM.
Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #275105 01/24/08 11:27 PM
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ALEX:

As I've mentioned to you before, both publicly and privately, the tactics of His Eminence, Cardinal Kaspar, remind me of the Germans and the Russians meeting together again to partition the lands that today comprise Poland, the Baltics, and the Ukraine.

Pay no attention to either Cardinal Kaspar or the MP. Just continue to be what you are called to be; nourish the faithful people entrusted to you by the Lord, and let Him keep you safe with His Providential Hand.

If need be, tell both sides to mind their own business. The business of the Church is NOT, IMHO, high level negotiations between the heads of Churches. It is in the day-to-day nourishment--teaching, preaching, and sanctifying--the faithful believers entrusted to them by the Lord in the mysterious way He has placed us together in history at the present moment.

His Beatitude, Lubomyr, the bishops, clergy and the faithful fo the UGCC continue to have my fervent prayers as they continue to wlak their pilgrim way to the Kingdom.

In Christ,

BOB

PS: It comes to mind that the Melkites and the Antiochians can share church buildings and support each other in tough situations in the Middle East. So why can't the MP come around and ask to share, as well as extend the same brotherly courtesy where they are the majority?

Last edited by theophan; 01/24/08 11:29 PM.
Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Diak] #275164 01/25/08 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Diak
Patriarch Lubomyr


And I have thought he still is "only" a Major Archbishop?!?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Krysostomos] #275254 01/25/08 06:50 PM
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One must remember that the Union of Brest is a bi-lateral agreement.


Fr. Serge

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #275268 01/25/08 08:07 PM
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One must remember that the Union of Brest is a bi-lateral agreement.


Fr. Serge

I seem to remember my history professor stating that it was never signed by the Pope at the time.
Is that true?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Halia12] #275302 01/25/08 11:35 PM
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Yes, it was never signed by the Pope - such documents are not normally signed by the Pope.

Fr. Serge

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #275331 01/26/08 03:49 AM
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Yes, it was never signed by the Pope - such documents are not normally signed by the Pope.

Fr. Serge

Perhaps, the professor meant that the document was never ratified by the Pope. The professor said that only the signatures of some of the Greek Catholic bishops appeared on the agreement. Is that true? Has a photo of the agreement with relevant signatures ever been reproduced in a book?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Comments on UGCC [Re: Halia12] #275346 01/26/08 05:13 AM
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Yes, a picture of the hand-written original Union with the original seals of the Kyivan hierarchs is included in Andrzej Polec's "Faith and Hope". Pope Clement VIII ratified the Union as explained by Pope John Paul II:
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Pope Clement VIII, in the Apostolic Constitution Magnus Dominus et laudabilis nimis, announced the union to the whole Church and in the Apostolic Letter Benedictus sit Pastor he addressed the Bishops of the Metropolia, informing them that the union had taken place.
(From the Fourth Centenary of the Union of Brest by the late Holy Father)

The Union of Uzhorod is the one no one seems to be able to find.


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