What will your Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parish be using for this year's LPG during Great Lent? I believe my church will still be using the Rev. Levkulic LPG booklet. Will your parish still sing the traditional "Preterp'ivyj" lenten hymn w/prostrations at the end of LPG?

Ung

Our parish will be using the older text, until the new Liturgy Pre-Sanctified Gifts is mandated.

As for "Will your parish still sing the traditional "Preterp'ivyj" lenten hymn w/prostrations at the end of LPG?"

I love that chant, but I don't think it is appropriate to do prostrations after Holy Communion. All other offices during Great Fast we use the "Preterp'ivyj" lenten hymn.

I'm glad that my parish will continue this Lenten tradition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_E9kdDfhI

U-C

I wish I lived in Brampton. They seem to do things with great care and respect for tradition.

Ung

An amazing parish at the top of my list, that is for sure. All of our trips there have been more than incredible and inspiring. Remember it started in an RC gym with core families devoted to the tradition. My son still talks vividly about our first visit coming up on ten years ago. Mnohaya lita Archpriest Roman and parish!!!

I was deeply moved and impressed by the film. I wish I could move there tomorrow. Such respect for the past. And hope for the future!

Tim

I see that the new translation of the LPG has also been gender neutralized. Is anyone's Church using this version for the upcoming Great Fast?

As far as I know, Passaic should be using the version Bp. Andrew promulgated, until such time as the Council of Bishops put out a new one. Last year, it was not neutralized, but that was last year...

I checked with my pastor today and we will use the Levkulic book for the LPG.

There have been no books distributed from Pittsburgh. And yes, we will sing Preterp'ivyj in both English and Slavonic with full prostrations. Why wouldn't we?

I have a question for you all. Wednesdays and Fridays are fast days, days of repentance. I've repeatedly read and been told in the past 10 years that kneeling is a sign of repentance (and not appropriate on Sunday). Will the faithful of your parish be kneeling during the LPG?

Fr. Deacon Paul


Fr. Deacon Paul

The parishes I attend were told to remain kneeling, as that is what we are use to doing, even on Sundays.

Ung

In the Melkite tradition, we make a full prostration as the Body and Blood of Our Lord pass by in the Great Procession--many people touching their heads to the floor. Those that don't touch their heads to the floor, would kneel and then bow low from that position.

It is a great and holy moment in our liturgy--and truly inspirational--as you see people's reaction to the real and tangible presence of their Saviour.

I think we are losing this piety in our Byzantine Church. The perception of the people is that we are trying to show the Orthodox that we are equally Orthodox (we don't dare kneel - very Western, you know). The recently published books do a very pitiful job of expressing piety and repentance and forget to mention that during fast days and periods our temperament and ambiance should be different than on Pascha and Sundays. (You don't see this in eastern Slovakia.)
I think the result is that we are watering down our respect and love for the Eucharist and spirituality and tending toward western protestantism (with this regard).

This is my opinion; I'm interested in the perception of others. It seems that we are more concerned with this strange concern of being "Eastern," rather than disciples of Christ, our God.

The Presanctified Liturgy is one of the few "expressions" left when we show personal piety. Hopefully any new book will bring back reverence and awesomeness.

Dear Paul,

you may have a point in general, but I do not agree with your specific example.

Kneeling on Sunday is not the authentic Byzantine tradition. It is for Roman Rite Catholics, and for them, it is a reflection of their piety and a very devout practice.

But we have a different tradition. This is not about mimicking the Eastern Orthodox, but about being faithful to our own traditions. Popes and an Ecumenical Council have called us to do just this.

Standing is the posture of reverence in the Byzantine Church. It is a very pious act. I have experienced the Lord's presence in a profound way in the Byzantine Church. I feel God with me standing in the pew having received the precious Body & Blood.

Piety is to some extent a matter of the heart. I cannot judge by externals how pious a fellow parishioner is. I can only focus on my own piety, and for me, piety has to do with how surrendered I am to the Lord. Without inner submission to Christ, the most correct form of external religious acts are meaningless.


Blessings,


Lance


A Byzantine Christian in a Postmodern World

Lance,

Let me clarify my statement. I understand the tradition of not kneeling on Sunday, for it is the "little Resurrection." I understand this. I also understand why we should also stand on the feastdays of Christ.

What about during the great Fast? The Dormition Fast? The Philip Fast? Sts Peter and Paul? On Wednesdays and Fridays? The Beheading of St John the Baptist? The Veneration of the Cross? Are we a nonrepentant people? I can understand not kneeling if the people would step into the aisles and prostrate, but they don't. So the best you can do in a pew is fall to your knees. The custom of approaching on your knees the Tomb of Christ on Holy Saturday is disappearing.

It also seems to be contradictory when we stand and the book says "on bended knee...." The vespers for fast days call for prostrations, yet other than one time in the Seminary, I have not witnessed it.

I think the fullness of our Eastern spirituality is diminished when we only celebrate the Resurrection and Christ's conquering death, but our own sinfullness is minimized. It is difficult to experience a metanoia if I don't realize my sinfulness and need for God's mercy and graces. Maybe this is the reason people don't understand the graces received with the frequent Mystery of Reconciliation.

While I'm at it, it was never explained why we changed the beating of our breast during the Communion Prayer to making the sign of the Cross. Surely the Publican wasn't Roman Catholic!

Well, I think I've said enough to pique some interest and offer food for thought for the forthcoming Great Fast.

Paul, I don't know your Russian or Rusin traditions, but a full prostration or great metany is not kneeling. They are different things.

Kneeling is for the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost Vespers.

Full prostrations for Great Compline (at the Prayer of St Ephraim), Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts, etc., are momentary and may not include actually touching the knees to the floor--although in a full prostration they are always at least bent.

Matta,

For clarification I should have separated the following into two paragraphs:

"On bended knee" also appears in the Moleben to the Theotokos and Paraklis after the final Ektenia. My comment regarding the Vespers prostrations is for the dismissal for a fast.

_____________

On this general subject, regarding the answer as to what is proper and what is not, I offer this humorous parable from http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/humor/whichisthetradition.cfm

In the village of Omsk all was not well in the local Parish. Every year, during Lent at a certain point in Matins ("Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes", ) half of the congregation would make a bow (a metania) at the waist, and half would make a full prostration to the floor.( a great metania)

The little metanists would start whispering sharply, "No! No! From the waist!" To which the great metanists would hiss back even louder, "Wrong! Full prostration! Who are you following, the Devil?!" And fist fights would break out and the service could not even be completed.

Finally the war-weary parishioners decided to ask their priest, Fr Benjamin. "Father, what is the tradition? In Lent, at 'Blessed art Thou', do we make a little metany, or a great metany?" Knowing the rancor attached to the dispute, poor Fr Benjamin trembled, grew pale, then fainted and fell backwards.

So next they went to the Skete of the Forerunner, and asked the Abbot: "Father, we want to know, we have a terrible argument at our parish--what is the tradition? Because half the people say to make small metanies at "Blessed art Thou' now, and half say great metanies. And we start fighting, terrible, terrible. So, tell us, what is the Tradition?" Seeing the ferocity in their faces, poor Hieromonk Anatoly simply fainted.

Then someone shouted, "Let's go to Elder John and ask him!" It was a marvelous idea. Surely the elder's answer would bring peace, for he was respected by all, a native of the village, and his hoary 94 years guaranteed a knowledge of what the old tradition had been.

So a large crowd gathered at the elder's hut on the outskirts of town. Some 15 men from both sides entered the hut, and found frail Elder lying on his bed. As he struggled to draw himself up and offer tea, they cut him off: "Elder John, you have to help us! What is the Tradition? Every year in Lent, at 'Blessed art Thou, O Lord', half of the people at our village make little metanies, and half the people great metanies, and we start to argue, and the service doesn't even finish because of the fist fight!" Then Elder John said firmly, in his voice shaking with age, and with tears streaming down his joyful face, "That... is... the Tradition!"

The moral of the story is that "tradition" is whatever we say it is. Even within a parish there are disagrements; the differences are even greater among INTRAchurch groups.javascript:void(0)


S'nami Boh!

Bitterly true.

Seems applicable also to the Catholic/Orthodox split, the Judean/Samaritan split, . . .

hawk, refraining from the easy shot at Luther (whoops!