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Dec 29th, 2019
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Besides noting what a Church asserts that it does, it is always wise to notice what a Church actually does - or so a theology professor of mine taught me.
Fr. Serge
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Bless, Father Archimandrite!
I've been saying exactly that to Alexis-Logos for some years now . . .
Alex
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There are videos posted on-line of Mar Bawai Soro receiving the Eucharist at Chaldean Catholic liturgies and even distributing the Eucharist alongside Chaldean bishop of San Diego, Sarhad Yawsip Jammo.
I am troubled by this.
Shouldn't Mar Bawai Soro wait until he is received into full communion with the Catholic Church before receiving the Eucharist in Chaldean parishes?
I know of the communion guidelines between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Church but that applies when there is a moral or physical obstacle to receive the Eucharist in one's own church.
Also, I have been on Assyrian websites which speak very negatively about Mar Soro. He is accused of financial mismanagement.
Relations between the Assyrian Church and the Catholic Church broke down temporarily following Mar Soro's suspension. I wonder what impact his reception into full communion will have on future relations with the Assyrian Church.
I would appreciate any clarifications. Hi all, I registered on this site in order to ease the confusion and misunderstanding of the recent steps taking by Dr. Mar Bawai Soro. I was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) until corruption enveloped the hierarchy of the Holy Church of my forefathers and ancestors. This was after the current Patriarch of the ACOE allowed a Bishop (Mar Aprim Khamis) that committed adultery with a Pakistani Muslim (Yasmine Khan) to remain in his bishopric duties against the canons of the Church. Unfortunately, this news was kept in the closet until a Chicago Tribune reporter stumbled on the adultery of this bishop and the blackmail he had paid towards the Pakistani woman. http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2001/7.23.01/index.php#ZindaSaysSadly, this wasn't the only time this Patriarch went against the canons in the Church. In 1994, Mar Dinkha, the ACOE Patriarch, along with his bishops met with the Holy Father, St. John Paul II, in order to pave a tangible road towards unity and communion. Finally, the Church of the East would end its ~1500 years of ecclesiastical isolation. Since Assyrians have been isolated for such a long time the reception to this news was mixed. Please read Mar Bawai's assessment of the news by fellow Assyrians: http://www.cired.org/cat/04_Reception_of_the_CCD.pdfThe ACOE entered within its own sunhadoos (canon laws) this common christological declaration as well as their effort to reestablish unity within the church through the Joint-Committee for Theological Dialogue. http://www.cired.org/cat/03_Joint_Statement_1995.pdfWithout notice Mar Dinkha, ACOE Patriarch, suspended this committee and took no more interest in the unity with the Roman Catholic church. Rumors flooded all the dioceses of the ACOE that Mar Dinkha did not want to submit to the Pope. Ironically, the Joint-Committee for Theological Dialogue was no longer active around the year 2000. This was the same time that the corruption of the ACOE flooded the church halls in regards to the Bishop blackmailed by Yasmine Khan. Mar Bawai Soro did not stop campaigning for unity within the church as well as striving for accountability. He was the only bishop in the Church who intentionally did not sign the 2001 ACOE Synod regarding the adulterous Bishop Khamis' minor punishment following his affairs and paid blackmail. Mar Bawai was interviewed on TV and stated that to sign the Synod would place him under anathema as he would actively go against the Canons of the church by allowing Bishop Khamis to still carry out bishopric duties within the church when his Canon punishment was to be defrocked. Interestingly, the Canon of Mar Odisho states that if a bishop is caught committing adultery he must be defrocked immediately and if not the entire Synod will be placed under "khormeh" (anathema). After his failed attempt for accountability within the church, Mar Bawai started amplifying his message of unity between the Chaldean Catholic Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East through the path towards Vatican. Many isolationists within the church started to actively campaign against Mar Bawai for such unifying views. They did not want to be "papayeh"--an assyrian derogatory term for Catholics. During this time, a famous satellite program "Assyria Sat" started to not only belittle Catholics but also our brothers and sisters in the Chaldean Church. Soon certain bishops, the very same that accompanied the Patriarch's meeting with H.H. John Paul II, started to appear on his television program and in front of their church flock speaking against both the Chaldean and Roman Catholic Church. These bishops began to be known as "isolationists" and the bishops that were for unity as "integrationists." For more information please read the below report on the bishops' views and some of their controversies. It is quite interesting to see only two bishops (Mar Bawai Soro and Mar Aprem Mookin) as pro-unity and they are also the only educated ones as well. http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2002/8.12.02/index.php#TheLighthouseSome of our people, especially those that remain in the Assyrian Church of the East in light of corruption and reckless mismanagement, seem to have forgotten the oath Mar Dinkha took with His Holiness St. John Paul II. In light of more corruption charges which not only included the adulterous bishop but another bishop in Australia who was accused of not only participating in Ponzi Scheme that bankrupted Australia of over 100 million dollars, but have immoral relations with a divorcee Eva George. http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/10.5.05/index_wed.php#TheLighthouseWhen Mar Bawai in 2005 was mysteriously suspended on grounds that "he disobeyed the patriarch" because he wrote two confidential letters regarding his alarming concern over the illegal abandonment of the unity quest based on the 2004 Common Christological Declaration with Vatican and the 2007 Ecclesiastical Understanding agreement with the Chaldean Catholic Church as well as the inaction towards the grave vow breaking of certain bishops and clergy, many people within the church basically said "enough is enough." The Santa Cruz District Court found no fault in Mar Bawai's finances or his duty as a Bishop. They only ruled that the buildings he was in supervising are no longer his as he had been excommunicated by the ACOE. Regardless if their decision is canonical or not, the churches belonged to the Synod of the ACOE. Those that actively left the ACOE and who are members of Mar Bawai's international diocese, are not only active in unity and dialogue with our Chaldean brothers and sisters, but we are also very active with our Ancient Church of the East parishioners. We believe that our sustained movement will not only restore unity and accountability within Christ's body in the Eastern Christian sect, but more importantly we will be able to better propel Christianity in a world where sin and distraction is force that needs to be reckoned with. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. May God lead us in unity and fellowship in order to pursue Christ's Mission on earth. God Bless!
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Orthodox Christian Member
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My prayers for all concerned.
Most Holy Theotokos save us.
Lord have mercy.
Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 01/29/08 05:51 PM.
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so this is a particular diocese of the Assyrian Church of the East that is requesting full communion with the Catholic Church,in union with Pope Benedict XVI?
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Dear Marganitha,
Welcome here and thank you for your extensive, comprehensive explanation!
May God our Lord and His Most Holy Mother protect the Holy Assyrian Church of the East!
May we all find full communion in Christ one day!
By the prayers of St Nestorius, St Theodore Mopsuestia and St Diodore of Tarsus!
Alex
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Marganitha, Thank very much for that explanation.  May Our Lord's prayer that all may be one be fulfilled. May God bless you, griego
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Mateusz,
I think so.. but this isn't a diocese in the regular sense. The diocese was created by the Mar Bawai Soro for the reasons Marganitha mentioned and isn't necessarily limiting itself geographically.
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Is it true that the bishops of Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) can be married?
Is Mar Bawai Soro married? and Mar Dinkha?
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The Assyrian Apostolic Church of the East is often willing to share the Eucharist with Catholics and Orthodox - that in itself is not a novelty. Presumably they would not do so with Aryans, if they could find any Aryans who wanted to receive Communion in the first place (the Muslims are Aryans, but don't quite realize it). Fr. Serge Fr Serge- I assume you meant "Arians?" Aryans are the ancient ethnic people of Persia/Iran. "Iran" is related to "Aryan." I could agree that most Aryans are Muslim, hence most Aryans are Arians. However, a minority of Aryans are Assyrian or Chaldean Christians, hence some Aryans are not Arians.
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Fr.Deacon, Let's not forget that some Aryans are Indian.. whilst also being Hindu.. while some are Aryan, Indian, and Christian... 
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Is it true that the bishops of Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) can be married?
Is Mar Bawai Soro married? and Mar Dinkha? No - the ACoE did allow all bishops, even the Patriarch to marry until the 6th Century, but that failed to expand and is now dead. None of the current bishops are married. Interestingly, some historical Synods of the ACoE affirm the right of priests and bishops to marry. Here's an excerpt from Fr. Roberson's book: It is not known exactly when Christianity first took root in upper Mesopotamia, but a Christian presence had certainly been established there by the mid-2nd century. In the 3rd century, the area was conquered by the Persians. Although this was to be a multi-ethnic church, the Assyrian people traditionally played a central role in its ecclesial life. Its geographical location caused it to become known simply as �the Church of the East.�
Around the year 300, the bishops were first organized into an ecclesiastical structure under the leadership of a Catholicos, the bishop of the Persian royal capital at Seleucia-Ctesiphon. He later received the additional title of Patriarch.
In the 5th century, the Church of the East gravitated towards the radical Antiochene form of christology that had been articulated by Theodore of Mopsuestia and Nestorius, and fell out of communion with the church in the Roman Empire. This was due in part to the significant influx of Nestorian Christians into Persia that took place following the condemnation of Nestorian christology by the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the expulsion of Nestorians from the Roman Empire by Emperor Zeno (474-491). In addition, the Persian Christians needed to distance themselves from the official church of the Roman Empire, with which Persia was frequently at war. In this way they were able to maintain their Christian faith while avoiding suspicions that they were collaborating with the Roman enemy.
Synods in the 5th century also decreed that celibacy should be obligatory for no one in this church, including bishops. A number of bishops and even patriarchs were married until the early 6th century, when the decision was taken to ordain only celibate monks to the episcopate. Priests, however, have always been allowed to marry, even after ordination.
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Is it true that the bishops of Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE) can be married?
Is Mar Bawai Soro married? and Mar Dinkha? No, neither of them were married. There was a Patriarch who got married in the 1973, Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII. He was 65 at the time of his marriage. He had been elected Patriarch at the age of 11 years old. The marriage created some controversy. In 1975, months before a meeting dealing with the issue of the patriarchate and the role of the patriarch, Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII was assasinated at the door of his home in San Jose, California, by David Ismail. At this point in history, I think it is a safe bet that revisiting the issue of episcopal marriage is probably not very high on the list of priorities. Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII [ en.wikipedia.org]
Last edited by A Simple Sinner; 01/30/08 03:01 AM.
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Dear all,
I am Anthony, a sub-deacon who is in the San Jose parish of H.G. Mar Bawai Soro. I have posted elsewhere on this announcement of intentions by our diocese and its clergy, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things that I saw in this thread.
The main point of this current posting is to show how Orthodox and Apostolic our Church is. The points I am going to address should show that we do agree on these teachings that are of Apostolic origins.
First starting with the question from antv, it is not true that the bishops of the Church of the East can be married. Mar Bawai is NOT married and is celibate. I believe countenance and the beliefs behind the celibacy of the bishops is well attested to in all Orthodox traditions.
The other thing that is a common misconception of the Church of the East is that it is an iconoclastic tradition. This is absolutely untrue! This is ascribing to the CotE something that its fathers did NOT believe in. Icon is in our liturgy several times. Our ancient fathers talked about them. I have been collecting several mentions of it from various sources in an attempt to further defend this position, but one thing that one of our priests mentioned was that an icon should be among the holy items in the front� a cross, a Bible, and an icon.
Unfortunately, over centuries of repression by Islam, icons made their way out of our practice. And due to the suppression of our faith, and killing of our scholars and clergymen, and immersion into the polemics of the surrounding muslim religion, many of our people have not learned the true apostolic traditions of the CotE. As I mentioned, this is something that I am still investigating heavily, and would love to one day share with you all everything I find. Currently though, my research is on hold as I have been overwhelmed with many other matters. Help from knowledgeable people would be appreciated. I will be sure to drill my priests and bishop for more information once they have more time and so do I.
As for the co-celebration of the Holy Offering, one thing to keep in mind too is the geopolitical situation in which the CotE {both the Chaldean and Assyrian branches} has been in. If anything, there is a very strong sense of community between the two since they are often in hardship together facing pretty much the same travail that prevails in the middle east region.
In Christ,
Anthony
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The point is that Arians saw Jesus not as a prophet of any kind, but as other Christians do, as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy - they just disagreed that He was fully God and there was no agreement among them on this score either. Case in point. The Muslims believe the same thing.
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