The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Alexander T., Raphael1999, Adrián Badida, fr nick, Andres Belizario
5640 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 170 guests, and 152 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,827
Posts412,417
Members5,640
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Psalm 51? #276207 01/31/08 08:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
Dandelion Offline OP
BANNED
Member
OP Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
I am not sure which Psalm it is,

* the Psalm where it says either " out of sin/guilt I was born" .
What does it exactly mean?, for years I had a misunderstanding of this passage,
and I do not know if it is left up to the individual to figure it out, or wait until it is explained to me before it is too late to change my outlook on life about it.

*why would I perceive this specific passage has led me to believe that the sin I was born from was do to the conjugal relations of my parents conceiving me?

any insight would be "greatly" appreciated smile

Dandelion

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion] #276209 01/31/08 09:41 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
H
Highlander Offline
learner
Member
Offline
learner
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
Dear Dandelion
This is Psalm 50 (51 in the Hebrew).
The Douai version reads:
"For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me."
Where modern versions have something like:
"remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception." (That particular rendering is the New Jerusalem Bible, but the New International version is similar.)
The more literal rendering of the Hebrew in the older versions can lead to a misunderstanding of the kind you refer to.

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander] #276210 01/31/08 09:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
H
Hieromonk Elias Offline
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
H
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Dear, in Christ,

I take this verse to heart, and it speaks to my own experience. We are born already broken, flawed, and in need of healing. We are born into a world that is broken, flawed, and in need of healing. We need to be made whole again, even before we are conscious of our brokenness.

I don't take it to teach so much about the way I am created (an act of God and my parents), as much as a statement that from the very beginning of my existence, I need God.

The verse names all human experience, and points to the reason our Saviour has come. He has come to heal, cure, and make us whole again. And everyone who is created, from the moment he is created, stands in need of salvation in Christ.

Thanks be to God, it is offered freely to all!

the unworthy,
Elias

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander] #276224 01/31/08 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
Dandelion Offline OP
BANNED
Member
OP Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Thank You,

Could it also be possible due to different interpreting translations, misunderstandings about what scriptures says & mean effect our thinking & reasoning?

Deanna

Last edited by Dandelion; 01/31/08 02:01 PM.
Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Hieromonk Elias] #276226 01/31/08 01:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
Dandelion Offline OP
BANNED
Member
OP Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Elias,

Thank You for explaining this verse to me.
smile
now it makes more sense, and not so contradictory in thought about one's creation from God.

Peace be to you,
Deanna


Last edited by Dandelion; 01/31/08 02:01 PM.
Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Highlander] #276266 01/31/08 05:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 773
lanceg Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 773
Originally Posted by Highlander
Dear Dandelion
This is Psalm 50 (51 in the Hebrew).
The Douai version reads:
"For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me."
Where modern versions have something like:
"remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception." (That particular rendering is the New Jerusalem Bible, but the New International version is similar.)
The more literal rendering of the Hebrew in the older versions can lead to a misunderstanding of the kind you refer to.


On a technical note, the Douay translation above is actually to be preferred by Byzantine Christians. Although translated from the Latin, the Douay version here matches the rendering of the Septuagint version, the official Old Testament of the Byzantine Church. In the Byzantine Tradition, we understand the passage in the way Hieromonk Elias explains above.


Blessings,

Lance

A Byzantine Christian in a Postmodern World

Last edited by lanceg; 01/31/08 05:05 PM.
Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Hieromonk Elias] #276287 01/31/08 08:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,551
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,551
Father Elias:

Father bless!!

Thank you for that very helpful understanding of this section of the Psalm.

The translation I memorized says " . . . in sin did my mother conceive me . . ." It makes it very difficult to explain to others who have read this rendering because it seems to imply that the God-given blessing of marital relations within a faithful marriage is somehow sinful when we know from Genesis that God has blessed the marriage relationship when He says, "Be frutiful and multiply . . ." I'll print this out and put copies into my prayerbook and Scripture.

May the Lord continue to bless your service to His People.

BOB


Last edited by theophan; 01/31/08 08:02 PM.
Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion] #276291 01/31/08 08:32 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Terry Bohannon Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Dandelion,

That can affect a read, but what may be a greater factor is the spiritual maturity by which we approach the meaning of the psalm. It's a life-long approach; not just to the psalms, but for how we read scripture as well as with how we live.

Have you read any of the Fathers? I'm reading St. Chrysostom's homilies on Matthew and have found myself constantly humbled by how the Saint reads scripture. I don't know if I can look at a modern commentary with the same amount of trust as I did before I began to appreciate the Fathers.

Terry

Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 01/31/08 08:41 PM.
Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon] #276306 01/31/08 10:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Pani Rose Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
We have been using Fr. Custer's book on the Scriptures from a Byzantine Perspective in adult ed at Church. With it, we are using the Douey and then using the Hebrew, Arabic (since the Church is mostly Middle Eastern) - looking at Church and Jewish understanding, and drawing from the other languages in with the relationship to the New Testament. It has really been enlighting to gain a bit of understanding on how things that seem to be one way in our understanding, when we go back and look at these languages what they really meant. Very interesting it is biggrin

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion] #276307 01/31/08 10:09 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
H
Highlander Offline
learner
Member
Offline
learner
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 153
Yes, and this is exactly why it is impossible to accept the sola sriptura idea that scripture is self-explanatory

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Pani Rose] #276311 01/31/08 10:29 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Terry Bohannon Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
You read Arabic? A professor friend of mine found Arabic to be a more difficult language to learn than Hebrew.

Terry

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon] #276317 01/31/08 11:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Pani Rose Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
You read Arabic? A professor friend of mine found Arabic to be a more difficult language to learn than Hebrew.

Terry


Terry biggrin St George is Melkite. Most of the people in the Church are Lebonese or Palastenian or some Middle Eastern Country with a splash of us Europeans biggrin So no, I don't read it, I guess after being around it for so many years I can understand a bit of it. It is truly a blessing.

What is awesome, is during Holy Week, when they sing the lamentaions in different Arabic dialects along with the English. The mournfulness of the language sung while lamenting is very 'startling' in it's own way, and has a tendency to make everyone take a step back, take a very deep look, and not take anything for granted. They are very beautiful.

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Pani Rose] #276323 02/01/08 12:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Marian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Dear Sister Pani Rose,

I would love to listen to lamentations sung in Arabic during the Holy Week.

Please, could you share a link with such Church songs?

Thank you!

Brotherly love, in Christ,

Marian+

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Terry Bohannon] #276335 02/01/08 02:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
Dandelion Offline OP
BANNED
Member
OP Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
hi Terri,

I thought so, and yes spiritual maturity is also an important factor.
Do you think that through proper interpretation of scripture can help form a mature understanding of what the scriptures are suppose to actually mean?.

Thank You,

Deanna

Re: Psalm 51? [Re: Dandelion] #276338 02/01/08 02:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,526
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Dandelion
hi Terri,

I thought so, and yes spiritual maturity is also an important factor.
Do you think that through proper interpretation of scripture can help form a mature understanding of what the scriptures are suppose to actually mean?.

A very good point. Proper understanding of Scripture is a very important part of spiritual growth. And so is prayer. Your praying of the psalms leads to desiring a good understanding of them. And that leads to spiritual growth.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3