The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Melkite4Life, son of the desert, chchannel, OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts
5,657 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (jova), 160 guests, and 123 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
by likethethief, June 12
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,879
Posts412,869
Members5,657
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna


Last edited by Dandelion; 02/08/08 05:27 AM.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
It is a defilement because it is a holy place reserved for Orthodox men who are a part of the community.

I would be as offended if some men bombarded a convent of cloistered nuns. One's sex is not the issue here.

It is a sacrilege.

Terry

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
First of all, to clear away a myth, there are both female cats and hens to be found on the Holy Mountain. Cats are well known for going where they please (has anyone ever tried to herd cats?), and the hens provide the eggs for the tempera with which the monks paint icons.

There are also, of course, female plants.

But neither the felines, nor the plants, nor the hens, are considered to violate the cloister.

Women who would like an Athonite experience of monasticism can obtain that experience in Orthodox monasteries for women (where, surprise, surprise, men are strictly barred from certain parts of the premises). Does anyone plan to organize a protest demonstration of men demanding admission to all the premises of women's monasteries?

"Defilement" is a red herring. Women can and do enter the Life-Giving Tomb of the Lord in Jerusalem to pray, and no one believes that such devout women have defiled the Tomb.

There is a regrettable impulse to want to go almost anywhere if I am not welcome to go there. The notion that perhaps I have no business to poke my nose in seems a personal affront. But there is no need to pander to such foolishness. This is esepcially true in matters of religion. The Bahai's (sorry; that's my best guess at the plural) maintain a magnificent garden near Haifa, which I once visited. But since I am not a Bahai, I was not permitted inside the actual sanctuary. I have managed to survive. Likewise, non-Mormons are not permitted inside Mormon temples. That is no reason for non-Mormons to arm themselves, march on the nearest Mormon temple, and smash the doors in.

A little sanity, please!

Fr. Serge

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,571
O
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,571
Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna




How about just showing respect for traditions

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Offline
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna



Your remarks completely miss the point.

Women are not bad, and they are not kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because they are bad.

Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive. Therefore, women are banned from men's monasteries so that the men won't be sexually aroused or otherwise distracted from their spiritual labors.

The women entering into Mt. Athos are therefore demonstrating their own pathetic egoism and ignorance instead of showing respect for the men who are trying to live a more spiritual life and for a great spiritual institution. If those women want to go to a monastic environment, they can go to plenty of women's monasteries (where the men are banned). But I suspect this isn't about seeking after spirituality; this is just about ego.

in disgust,

-- John

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
to all,
I agree that women shouldn't drop in "men's" monasteries and respect their privacy,
however the issue at hand is still about the land.
quote;
Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive.

and where did this theory/tradition come from?
( what kind of and where did this form of thought originate from and why?)

The Blessed Mother & St. Joseph had an earthly marriage.

also if the mountain is dedicated to the Blessed Mother and no women are allowed
could that be considered putting a material object 1st. before a female human being?

God Bless smile

Deanna


Last edited by Dandelion; 02/08/08 02:08 PM.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Quote
Hoqw about just showing respect for traditions


So true the word of our Sister Anhelyna.

First of all it is about respect for the spiritual choice of many souls.

Dandelion, a house, a den. A person must not break the door and enter non invited. Respect.

Respect for the Holy Tradition. You know about Orthodoxy?

But there are many more arguments et al. My brethren who perfectly can write in English surely can add more.

Marian+

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
D
BANNED
Member
Offline
BANNED
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 106
Like the MR Mister song?

I agree about women not invading mens privacy in all male monasteries
and the same the respect given for the women' monasteries.

The fact still remains about the land.

Deanna smile

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
Ms. Deanna,

If there is and it remains any fact about the land, then there are law, lawyers, justice and judges.

God bless your quests. Amin.

smile

Marian+

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 194
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 194
On an historical note, haven't there been a few (pastoral) exceptions to the ban? I've heard, for instance, that female refugees were allowed on the Holy Mount during the Greek Civil War, and again during WWII, when Jewish men and women were given shelter. Can anyone clarify?


Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
If it really was about real estate and people's desire to develop on the disputed land, then why did ONLY women climb the fence? And don't they have a legal system to dispute property ownership? How long was the fence up? Why climb it now after all these years? Rules during war, life or death situations is a different issue.

I've noticed over the years that it is always OK to push the envelope when it comes to sports interviews in mens locker rooms, but NOT womens; OK to enter illegally property or building inhabited by men only (it's about rights and equality), but not property for women only (that would be considered sexually provocative). Land dispute is one thing; only women climbing over a fence to challenge the Athonite 1,000 tradition is another. These are two issues, whereby one is taking expense at the other.

Ed

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
Quote
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.


Those are very good points. Mt. Athos may be dedicated to the Mother of God as are many churches around the world, but that does not mean that women are in some way "unclean" and men are "clean" or that the Mother of God is jealous of women as a group. We should be stressing that the Mother of God loves both males and females equally.
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Halia12
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.


Women should also respect a monastic community that is all male. The demeaning and insulting seems to be coming from only one direction.
Ed

Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5