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Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #277497 02/08/08 05:26 AM
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Dandelion Offline
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Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna


Last edited by Dandelion; 02/08/08 05:27 AM.
Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277501 02/08/08 05:50 AM
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It is a defilement because it is a holy place reserved for Orthodox men who are a part of the community.

I would be as offended if some men bombarded a convent of cloistered nuns. One's sex is not the issue here.

It is a sacrilege.

Terry

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Terry Bohannon] #277510 02/08/08 06:50 AM
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First of all, to clear away a myth, there are both female cats and hens to be found on the Holy Mountain. Cats are well known for going where they please (has anyone ever tried to herd cats?), and the hens provide the eggs for the tempera with which the monks paint icons.

There are also, of course, female plants.

But neither the felines, nor the plants, nor the hens, are considered to violate the cloister.

Women who would like an Athonite experience of monasticism can obtain that experience in Orthodox monasteries for women (where, surprise, surprise, men are strictly barred from certain parts of the premises). Does anyone plan to organize a protest demonstration of men demanding admission to all the premises of women's monasteries?

"Defilement" is a red herring. Women can and do enter the Life-Giving Tomb of the Lord in Jerusalem to pray, and no one believes that such devout women have defiled the Tomb.

There is a regrettable impulse to want to go almost anywhere if I am not welcome to go there. The notion that perhaps I have no business to poke my nose in seems a personal affront. But there is no need to pander to such foolishness. This is esepcially true in matters of religion. The Bahai's (sorry; that's my best guess at the plural) maintain a magnificent garden near Haifa, which I once visited. But since I am not a Bahai, I was not permitted inside the actual sanctuary. I have managed to survive. Likewise, non-Mormons are not permitted inside Mormon temples. That is no reason for non-Mormons to arm themselves, march on the nearest Mormon temple, and smash the doors in.

A little sanity, please!

Fr. Serge

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277521 02/08/08 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna




How about just showing respect for traditions

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277526 02/08/08 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna



Your remarks completely miss the point.

Women are not bad, and they are not kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because they are bad.

Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive. Therefore, women are banned from men's monasteries so that the men won't be sexually aroused or otherwise distracted from their spiritual labors.

The women entering into Mt. Athos are therefore demonstrating their own pathetic egoism and ignorance instead of showing respect for the men who are trying to live a more spiritual life and for a great spiritual institution. If those women want to go to a monastic environment, they can go to plenty of women's monasteries (where the men are banned). But I suspect this isn't about seeking after spirituality; this is just about ego.

in disgust,

-- John

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: harmon3110] #277543 02/08/08 01:52 PM
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to all,
I agree that women shouldn't drop in "men's" monasteries and respect their privacy,
however the issue at hand is still about the land.
quote;
Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive.

and where did this theory/tradition come from?
( what kind of and where did this form of thought originate from and why?)

The Blessed Mother & St. Joseph had an earthly marriage.

also if the mountain is dedicated to the Blessed Mother and no women are allowed
could that be considered putting a material object 1st. before a female human being?

God Bless smile

Deanna


Last edited by Dandelion; 02/08/08 02:08 PM.
Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277546 02/08/08 02:32 PM
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Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277547 02/08/08 02:34 PM
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Quote
Hoqw about just showing respect for traditions


So true the word of our Sister Anhelyna.

First of all it is about respect for the spiritual choice of many souls.

Dandelion, a house, a den. A person must not break the door and enter non invited. Respect.

Respect for the Holy Tradition. You know about Orthodoxy?

But there are many more arguments et al. My brethren who perfectly can write in English surely can add more.

Marian+

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277550 02/08/08 02:39 PM
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Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Marian] #277554 02/08/08 02:51 PM
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Like the MR Mister song?

I agree about women not invading mens privacy in all male monasteries
and the same the respect given for the women' monasteries.

The fact still remains about the land.

Deanna smile

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Dandelion] #277567 02/08/08 04:08 PM
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Ms. Deanna,

If there is and it remains any fact about the land, then there are law, lawyers, justice and judges.

God bless your quests. Amin.

smile

Marian+

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Marian] #277606 02/08/08 10:53 PM
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On an historical note, haven't there been a few (pastoral) exceptions to the ban? I've heard, for instance, that female refugees were allowed on the Holy Mount during the Greek Civil War, and again during WWII, when Jewish men and women were given shelter. Can anyone clarify?


Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #277607 02/08/08 11:04 PM
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If it really was about real estate and people's desire to develop on the disputed land, then why did ONLY women climb the fence? And don't they have a legal system to dispute property ownership? How long was the fence up? Why climb it now after all these years? Rules during war, life or death situations is a different issue.

I've noticed over the years that it is always OK to push the envelope when it comes to sports interviews in mens locker rooms, but NOT womens; OK to enter illegally property or building inhabited by men only (it's about rights and equality), but not property for women only (that would be considered sexually provocative). Land dispute is one thing; only women climbing over a fence to challenge the Athonite 1,000 tradition is another. These are two issues, whereby one is taking expense at the other.

Ed

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: EdHash] #277631 02/09/08 03:53 AM
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Quote
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.


Those are very good points. Mt. Athos may be dedicated to the Mother of God as are many churches around the world, but that does not mean that women are in some way "unclean" and men are "clean" or that the Mother of God is jealous of women as a group. We should be stressing that the Mother of God loves both males and females equally.
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community [Re: Halia12] #277633 02/09/08 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Halia12
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.


Women should also respect a monastic community that is all male. The demeaning and insulting seems to be coming from only one direction.
Ed

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