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Need East/West Canon Lawyer #278810
02/15/08 08:50 PM
02/15/08 08:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
MN
O
Olga Offline OP
Junior Member
Olga  Offline OP
Junior Member
O
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 10
MN
Can anyone suggest an East/West Canon Lawyer that can help us correct Sacramental records?

We have just found out my husband is Byzantine and we are trying to get all of his and our son's Sacramental records cleared up.

We have several Latin Canon Lawyer’s and Priest and say our son is not Byzantine though we know this is not true.

We need a letter to accompany the Baptismal certificate of my husband's mother (Byzantine) to correct the Sacramental records of my husband (Baptismal, Eucharist, Confirmation, Marriage) because his father was Methodist.

We also need to correct the Baptismal, Eucharistic and Confirmation, Sacramental records of our son who was baptized Latin and who is officially Byzantine but cannot find.

We need an East/West Canon Lawyer willing to write a letter that accompanies the original Baptismal certificate of my husband's mother - in order to clear up all the Sacramental records of my husband and especially our son.

All of the Latin Canon Lawyers and priests that we have turned to are willing to write a letter for my husband but not our son because they claim our son is Latin rite, because that is what we intended at the time of his baptism. At the time of his baptism, we did not know my husband was Byzantine! We cannot have our son's Sacramental records changed without some "official" letterhead signed documentation accompanying the certified Baptismal certificate.

Because many of these records involve the same Church we need someone whose enclosed letter will be "official" - whatever that means.

Can anyone help us?

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

Re: Need East/West Canon Lawyer [Re: Olga] #278822
02/15/08 11:34 PM
02/15/08 11:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,180
California
Elizabeth Maria Offline
Orthodox Christian
Elizabeth Maria  Offline
Orthodox Christian
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,180
California
Could you just do a change of rites for your son? Since the father is Byzantine, there should be no problem.

That would save you attorney's fees and accomplish the same purpose, because then your son would also be considered Byzantine and you would have the paperwork to prove it.

Re: Need East/West Canon Lawyer [Re: Elizabeth Maria] #278832
02/16/08 03:23 AM
02/16/08 03:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
I
Irish Melkite Offline
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Irish Melkite  Offline
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Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
Olga,

See the links that I gave in the earlier discussion about these issues at http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/275074/fpart/2

Many years,

Neil, who finds it difficult to believe that the Latin canon lawyers can be so obtuse as to interpret "intent" to exist in the absence of the knowledge which would have made it possible to have such intent.

btw, you could skip the Latin end of the paperwork and just have the pastor of the Byzantine parish notate his sacramental registers accordingly. It's not a perfect solution, but the likelihood of any need for your son to ever trace backward beyond such a record as a requirement to prove his ecclesial lineage is pretty slim.


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Need East/West Canon Lawyer [Re: Irish Melkite] #278958
02/16/08 09:37 PM
02/16/08 09:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 490
Seattle
Ghosty Offline
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Ghosty  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 490
Seattle
I know for a fact that the "intent" angle doesn't fly with Rome. I know a man who entered the Dominican Order, who was Baptized Latin, and his father had practiced all his teenage and adult life in the Latin Church, but had himself been Baptized Ukrainian Catholic as an infant.

When this fellow entered the Dominican Order and his paperwork was checked, he was "red-lighted" because he was a Byzantine entering a Latin Order. He ended up having to file a special case with the Vatican for permission, and get permission from his Ukrainian Bishop (whom he'd never even heard of) before proceeding, and this was AFTER he'd already gone through most of his novitiate.

I'll see if I can contact him to find out what Canon Lawyers worked on his case, because they would clearly know the proper details of this issue. I would also add that it's a good thing you're working this out now, because it may very well save a lot of stress later if your son decides to enter religious life outside of the Byzantine tradition. :p

Peace and God bless!

Re: Need East/West Canon Lawyer [Re: Ghosty] #278976
02/17/08 12:57 AM
02/17/08 12:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,501
West Coast
Stephanos I Offline
Member
Stephanos I  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,501
West Coast
Just becasue someone is baptised into the Latin Church does not make them a Latin Catholic. I believe the right goes after the father's birth. They may have attended a latin church all their life raised their children in the Latin Church. But in essence are Byzantine. This was to protect the sui juris Church from loosing its member if I believe correctly.
Stephanos I
Unfortunately I am away from my books of Canon Law so I can not cite the appropriate canons.

Last edited by Stephanos I; 02/17/08 12:57 AM.
Re: Need East/West Canon Lawyer [Re: Stephanos I] #278987
02/17/08 04:43 AM
02/17/08 04:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
I
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Irish Melkite  Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
The story that Ghosty relates is accurate. I am aware of similar circumstances involving an individual whose parents were Maronite (father) and Melkite (mother), but who was raised as a Melkite. He, too, was advanced in his seminary studies for the Melkite presbyterate when the disparity came to light and slowed his progress considerably until resolved. And while I don't disagree that it would be advantageous to resolve the inaccuracies in the sacramental registers, the prospect of the youth pursuing orders outside his own (Byz) Church sui iuris is really the sole instance in which the matter would likely be of sufficient concern to cause anyone to look beyond an annotation in the Byzantine parish register.

Father Stephanos' comments are accurate. The thread to which I linked above cites all of the relevant canons to which he makes reference.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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