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#279383 - 02/19/08 04:37 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: indigo]
indigo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 707
Loc: small blue planet
By the way, I'm so impressed with the civility of this forum on such a hot, hot subject . That can't be said of all forums! Keep up the lenten prayers, they're working.

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#279389 - 02/19/08 06:00 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: indigo]
Orest Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 507
Loc: Canada
Byzantophile, I really like the 2 analogies you wrote above:
1)seperatism re: Ontario/ Canada and Penn/USA
2)Puritans ans aboriginal peoples
Very helful in understanding the Kosovo problem. I am looking forward to using them at work tomorrow in discussions.

I found this online about "Balkanization".

Quote:
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=516

Does Balkanization Beckon Anew?

by Patrick J. Buchanan

February 18, 2008


When the Great War comes, said old Bismarck, it will come out of "some damn fool thing in the Balkans."
On June 28, 1914, Gavrilo Princip shot the archduke and heir to the Austrian throne Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo, setting in motion the train of events that led to the First World War.

In the spring of 1999, the United States bombed Serbia for 78 days to force its army out of that nation's cradle province of Kosovo. The Serbs were fighting Albanian separatists of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). And we had no more right to bomb Belgrade than the Royal Navy would have had to bombard New York in our Civil War.

We bombed Serbia, we were told, to stop the genocide in Kosovo. But there was no genocide. This was propaganda. The United Nations' final casualty count of Serbs and Albanians in Slobodan Milosevic's war did not add up to 1 percent of the
dead in Mr. Lincoln's war.

Albanians did flee in the tens of thousands during the war. But since that war's end, the Serbs of Kosovo have seen their churches and monasteries smashed and vandalized and have been ethnically cleansed in the scores of thousands from
their ancestral province. In the exodus they have lost everything. The remaining Serb population of 120,000 is largely confined to enclaves guarded by NATO troops.

"At a Serb monastery in Pec," writes the Washington Post, "Italian troops protect the holy site, which is surrounded by a massive new wall to shield elderly nuns from stone-throwing and other abuse by passing ethnic Albanians."

On Sunday, Kosovo declared independence and was recognized by the European Union and President Bush. But this is not the end of the story. It is only the preface to a new history of the Balkans, a region that has known too much history.

By intervening in a civil war to aid the secession of an ancient province, tocreate a new nation that has never before existed and, to erect it along ethnic,
religious and tribal lines, we have established a dangerous precedent. Muslim
and Albanian extremists are already talking of a Greater Albania, consisting of Albania, Kosovo and the Albanian-Muslim sectors of Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia.

If these Albanian minorities should demand the right to secede and join their kinsmen in Kosovo, on what grounds would we oppose them? The inviolability of borders? What if the Serb majority in the Mitrovica region of northern Kosovo,
who reject Albanian rule, secede and call on their kinsmen in Serbia to protect them?

Would we go to war against Serbia, once again, to maintain the territorial integrity of Kosovo, after we played the lead role in destroying the territorial integrity of Serbia?

Inside the U.S.-sponsored Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the autonomous Serb Republic of Srpska is already talking secession and unification with Serbia. On what grounds would we deny them?

The U.S. war on Serbia was unconstitutional, unjust and unwise. Congress never authorized it. Serbia, an ally in two world wars, had never attacked us. We made an enemy of the Serbs, and alienated Russia, to create a second Muslim state in
the Balkans.

By intervening in a civil war where no vital interest was at risk, the United States, which is being denounced as loudly in Belgrade today as we are being cheered in Pristina, has acquired another dependency. And our new allies, the KLA, have been credibly charged with human trafficking, drug dealing, atrocities
and terrorism.

And the clamor for ethnic self-rule has only begun to be heard.

Rumania has refused to recognize the new Republic of Kosovo, for the best of reasons. Bucharest rules a large Hungarian minority in Transylvania, acquired at the same Paris Peace Conference of 1919 where Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were detached from Vienna and united with Serbia.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two provinces that have broken away from Georgia, are invoking the Kosovo precedent to demand recognition as independent nations. As our NATO expansionists are anxious to bring Georgia into NATO, here is yet
another occasion for a potential Washington-Moscow clash.

Spain, too, opposed the severing of Kosovo from Serbia, as Madrid faces similar demands from Basque and Catalan separatists.

The Muslim world will enthusiastically endorse the creation of a new Muslim state in Europe at the expense of Orthodox Christian Serbs. But Turkey is also likely to re-raise the issue as to why the EU and United States do not formally recognize the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Like Kosovo, it, too, is an
ethnically homogeneous community that declared independence 25 years ago.

Breakaway Transneistria is seeking independence from Moldova, the nation wedged between Rumania and Ukraine, and President Putin of Russia has threatened to recognize it, Abkhazia and South Ossetia in retaliation for the West's recognition of Kosovo.

If Putin pauses, it will be because he recognizes that of all the nations of Europe, Russia is high among those most threatened by the serial Balkanization we may have just reignited in the Balkans.



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#279390 - 02/19/08 06:16 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Orest]
Byzantophile Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 480
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Quote:
Byzantophile, I really like the 2 analogies you wrote above


Many thanks.

Funny that you should mention "Balkanization". That's a word that goes out of style when things seem to quiet down there. Similarly, in French, the word "Balkan" as an adjective means barbaric. I remember a student from France telling me this in college, but she said the term was a bit outdated.

As well, during a discussion in the dorms, when I refered to Greece as being a "Balkan Country" my friend Eleni (who was from Greece) shot me a dirty look and vehemently denied it. I couldn't understand why and then made the mistake of pointing out the fact that Greece was indeed on the Balkan Peninsula, after which I was coldly informed that Greece was a "Western European" nation. LOL.

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#279401 - 02/19/08 07:05 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Byzantophile]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
I would say that culturally Greece has strong links to the Middle East, rather than to the Balkans. It is certainly not Western European, apart from its long-standing links with Italy.

Fr. Serge

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#279404 - 02/19/08 07:10 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Orest Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 507
Loc: Canada
I agree with you except for those pesky "Slavs", a small minority in the North who call themselves Macedonians.

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#279414 - 02/19/08 08:17 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Orest]
Lawrence Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/03
Posts: 2204
Loc: Illinois

For those who accept the demonization of Serbia, it should be noted that the Albanian Moslems carried out the same type of terror attacks against the Orthodox Christian population of Macedonia in 2001, a country who had no part in the violent break up of the former Yugoslavia. Over 30 Orthodox Churches were firebombed, and many Macedonians including both civilians and those in the military believe NATO sided with the Moslems during the conflict. For that reason, like Serbia, their is a great deal of animosity towards NATO in Macedonia, and it is well earned.

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#279470 - 02/20/08 09:21 AM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Lawrence]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3354
Loc: US

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#279515 - 02/20/08 02:06 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: AMM]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3354
Loc: US
I think there are several things we can glean from history that make this news not only unsurprising, but actually historically understandable. I would list the following:

- Manipulation of the political situation in the Balkans by the western powers. The 19th century Conference of Berlin being a prime example.
- An utter lack of disinterest in protecting native Christian interests in the Middle to Near East by the western powers whenever they conflict with national interest.
- A growing level of interference in the internal affairs of other countries as a standard element of American foreign policy starting in the early 20th century.
- Rivalries among the Balkan groups themselves.

Those factors became prominent in the period that is critical for understanding the current situation - the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (the "sick man" of Europe) and the order that emerged after the World Wars (including the rise and fall of the Iron Curtain).

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#279525 - 02/20/08 02:53 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: AMM]
Byzantophile Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 480
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7254434.stm


They should! Good for them!!!

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#279594 - 02/21/08 07:19 AM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Byzantophile]
robster Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Minneapolis, Minn. USA
I fail to see any legitimate moral basis for Kosovo to be demanding and declaring independence. I realize this must be incredibly naive in that region of the world but is there any hope that we can all just get along?

And if Kosovo has the right to become independent, why not parts or all of Vojvodina as well, on behalf of Hungarian Catholics?

Having said that, I think it must be noted that the atrocious Serb behavior, whether it came from the official Serbian army or Serbia paramilitary irregulars, during the 1992-95 period was inexcusable and cannot have helped but stoke some of the sympathy and support that Kosovo Albanians are now enjoying in their drive to tear Serbia asunder.

Lastly, Fr. Serge, with all due respect, I don't think it's appropriate to refer to US/NATO conduct during the Kosovo Air War as a war crime. However sound or unsound the basis for the war itself may have been, I don't think its in bello conduct can be labeled a war crime short of conclusive proof that the Western allies were deliberately trying to hit morally illicit targets such as innocent Serb civilians or foreign embassies. I am unaware of any such evidence, and all indications are such bombings were genuine accidents.

Best to all,
Robster

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#279600 - 02/21/08 09:07 AM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: robster]
Lawrence Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/03
Posts: 2204
Loc: Illinois

I'm sorry Robster, but I'll have to agree with Fr Serge on this one. American and NATO forces were guilty of actions in 1999 that at the very least should be investigated for possible war crimes charges. Precision guided bombs hitting sites where there was no military presence of any kind. General Michael Short's comments about destroying Belgrade, and his demands for unlimited bombing targets.

Of course, some Serbians committed atrocities in the Wars in Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia and Kosovo, but what so very often get's overlooked is that the Croatians and especially the Bosnian and Albanian Moslems did as well. From the very beginning the Western media virtually blacked out any mention of Islamic extremists, both foreign and home grown within the Bosnian military and government. One need only read Alija Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration to understand why Serbs in what became the nation of Bosnia-Hercegovina, took up arms against the new government.

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#279608 - 02/21/08 11:41 AM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Lawrence]
theophan Offline

Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5202
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
I'd have to say that, looking at the history of that area, we were absolutely foolish to have gotten into any conflict resolution there over the past twenty years. The Balkans have been a mix of peoples and religions for the whole of the history there and has been the area that has ignited so many wars because the people and religions there simply cannot seem to get along. The whole history seems to me to be a conflict over who is in control at a given moment and the attempts of those not in control to either regain it or to establish their own group as the controlling group.

But that peculiar American habit of thinking "everyone is like us" and "everyone needs the same kind of government that we have" keeps dragging us into all kinds of conflicts around the globe while at the same time draining our resources so badly needed at home.

And this idea of having every minority claim a piece of territory and asking for both independence and recognition-- I wonder what will happen when the Confederacy asks to be separated from those Yankees in the north again?

Could this all be the beginning of a world-wide movement that sees armed conflict everywhere?

BOB


Edited by theophan (02/21/08 11:47 AM)

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#279624 - 02/21/08 12:47 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: theophan]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3354
Loc: US
I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind that the Albanians were treated poorly, but at the same time I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind that with the tables turned the opposite won't happen. We have in fact seen that it has happened. We chastise and bomb one side for engaging in behavior we don't like (ethnic cleansing), and we reward, protect, or stand by while the other does the same. The bias in our government and media in regards to this and past events in the region is obvious.

I find equally as troubling our self assumed role as nation makers and nation destroyers, and that I do believe contributes directly to global insecurity. That is as much for Iraq as it is for these recent events in the Balkans. We aren't the world's police, and I assume the world doesn't want us to be. What we should consider with supporting this breakup, as we should any other action, is what the ultimate consequences and unintended effects will be. When we intervene in the internal affairs of another country we never know what the outcome will be, and it is often not what we would intend and or desire. That's why the term Blowback has been coined.

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#279625 - 02/21/08 12:58 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: robster]
Edward Yong Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 728
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: robster

Lastly, Fr. Serge, with all due respect, I don't think it's appropriate to refer to US/NATO conduct during the Kosovo Air War as a war crime. However sound or unsound the basis for the war itself may have been, I don't think its in bello conduct can be labeled a war crime short of conclusive proof that the Western allies were deliberately trying to hit morally illicit targets such as innocent Serb civilians or foreign embassies. I am unaware of any such evidence, and all indications are such bombings were genuine accidents.


The destruction of Serbia's only car factory was wanton vandalism of the highest order.

Also, the precision-bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade was not an accident. Peking should've lobbed a few at Washington for that one.

It's time for America to stop playing global policeman- unwelcome, uninformed and accumulating bad karma every day.

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#279628 - 02/21/08 01:21 PM Re: Kosovo's Independence In Days [Re: Edward Yong]
robster Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Minneapolis, Minn. USA
While I'm no expert on military matters, I gather the fact that precision guided bombs did not land at appropriate targets does not definitively establish that war crimes were committed. I assum pg munitions can either not work properly or not be employed properly by the people using them.

As for the Chinese Embassy, while it is my understanding that the US was deliberately trying to hit the building, it was because it was based on outdated intelligence that somehow had it listed as being a Serbia government target of some kind.

I have no problem, as an American, a conservative American at that, condemning my government for any and every crime under the sun that it may commit. With my growing knowledge of the history and the situation in the Middle East, I find much of what we're doing there unwise and our extensive support of Israel bordering on the criminal.

But I will not accept the charge of war crimes pertaining to any American conflict in the absence of solid, irrefutable proof.

Best,
Robster


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