Here's the report:

Do they use the RDL pewbook? Yes.

Do the sing the music as it is written in the RDL pewbook? No,
especiall the music they chose to sing for the Cherubic Hymn, which was not found in the RDL pewbook.

There were things that supprised me, the length of liturgy, most of the parishioners not singing, the use of an Eucharist minister, etc.

Ung

The length of the liturgy? Was it too long or too short?

Short for a St. Basil liturgy.

Ung

Do you mean lay people were serving communion?

How can the use of an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist be justified in an Eastern Catholic context? There is no such thing in the Orthodox and Byzantine tradition. In the Orthodox Church no layman even touches the Holy Table or the Chalice and Diskos. In the Russian Church, even a Deacon does not distribute Holy Communion, unless it is in the most extraordinary of circumstances. Certainly not simply to make Communion go faster! I am truly flabbergasted.

Fr David Straut

Father David,

The news of having an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist is flabbergasting. However, taken in the context that 90%+ of Greek Cathlolic churches don't celebrate Vespers and/or Matins, 99%+ of Greek Catholic churches don't celebrate The Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, etc. it shouldn't be all that surprising that it could happen. Once the slippery slope has been entered upon, this is the kind of stuff that happens.

Monomakh

Unfortunately, the footwork for having Lay Eucharistic Ministers in Catholic Eastern Churches was laid with the promulgation, by Pope John Paul II, of the Code of Canons for Eastern Churches (CCEO) in 1990. Here is the appropriate canon:

Canon 709 - §1. The priest distributes the Divine Eucharist or if the particular law of his own Church sui iuris establishes it, also the deacon.
§2. The synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church or the council of hierarchs is free to establish appropriate norms, according to which other Christian faithful can distribute the Divine Eucharist.


Deacon Robert

If not encouragement, isn't that open license to violate Eastern tradition? Why would the western church be able to establish liturgical norms for an Eastern one?

Anyone have any photos or studies to back them upin assertions like:

"90%+ of Greek Cathlolic churches don't celebrate Vespers and/or Matins, 99%+ of Greek Catholic churches don't celebrate The Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete"

Anyone?

Why is it always open season on the BCC when it comes to sensationalizing or rumor mongering?

Actually, I am told that the text of canons were prepared by canonists of Catholic Eastern Churches, and then forwarded to the Pope for his blessing and promulgation. In other words, they were essentially the work of "easterners".

Dn. Robert

Fr. Deacon, wasn't the mandate to return to Eastern traditions though? Why would the canonists propose that and why would it be approved?

First of all, the BCC is not the only Greek Catholic jurisdiction here in the USA.

Secondly, the 90% number is not a stretch at all for Vespers and Matins, it is right around reality. I travel for work extensively throughout the US and Canada. Many weekends I am out of town, I have searched high and low to find Greek Catholic parishes that provide complete Vespers on Saturday evenings. Your profile says your in Ohio, we could together go over the churches here in Ohio where we both live and find that they are not specious. I'll begin to look up others churches across the country that have websites and see what their schedules. If others could help that would be great. I'd like to have a list of parishes that offer the full liturgical celebrations so that when I travel I'll know where to go. (I started a list at the end of this post). Let's go through this and we'll see who the sensationalists are.

With regards to the Great Canon of St. Andrew. I challenge you to find more than 3, and I defy you to name more than 8 Greek Catholic churches in the US that celebrated the Great Canon of St. Andrew during the first week of the Great Fast this year, the year before that, etc. Instead of getting upset with the messenger, perhaps those who cut corners at every chance they get should be questioned by you as well.

Here is the list I started for Vespers (this is the best of my knowledge)
St. Josaphat (Ukrainian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. Andrew (Ukrainian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. John (Ruthenian Cathedral) Parma OH no Vespers
St. Gregory (Ruthenian) Lakewood OH no Vespers
Holy Ghost (Ruthenian) Cleveland, OH I heard that Vespers was discontinued, someone please confirm
St. Mary (Ruthenian) Cleveland, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Brecksville, OH no Vespers
Holy Spirit (Ruthenian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. John (Ruthenian) Columbus OH I heard they have Vespers
St. Anne (Ukrainian) Youngstown OH no Vespers
Holy Ghost (Ukrainian) Akron OH no Vespers
St. Stephen (Ruthenian) Euclid OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Akron OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian)Ashtabula OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian)Barberton OH no Vespers
St. Eugene (Ruthenian)Bedford OH no Vespers
Infant Jesus of Prague Boardman OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian)Campbell OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian) Cleveland OH no Vespers
St. Barbara (Ruthenian) Dayton OH no Vespers
St. Mary Magdalene (Ruthenian) Fairview Pk, OH no Vespers
St. Mary (Ruthenian) Marblehead, OH no Vespers
St. Andrew (Ruthenian) Mentor, OH I heard that they do, please confirm
St. John the Baptist (Ruthenian) Mingo Junction, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Newton Falls, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Oregon, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Pleasant City,OH unknown
St. John (Ruthenian) Solon, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Toledo, OH unknown
Ss. Peter and Paul (Ruthenian) Warren, OH unknown
St. George (Ruthenian) Youngstown, OH
St. Emilian (Ruthenian) Brunswick, OH I heard it was discontinued need confirmation
Pokrova (Ukrainian) no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian) Lorain, OH They have Vespers
St. Elias (Melkite) Brooklyn, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Melkite) Akron, OH no Vespers

And with regards to the Cathedral in Munhall, PA that this thread is about, the last time I checked, the parish had the time to celebrate Saturday evening liturgy but not to celebrate Vespers even though the cantor was very qualified and knew the music for vespers.



I have to find out about others still. Also, this probably should be it's own thread.........


Monomakh

I am sorry I said anything - a lot of time and effort just went into that.

I concede we are deeply flawed and less authentic. I have been won over.

"St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Toledo, OH unknown"

Where is that parish supposed to be?

OCA parishes:

All.

I'd have to muster up a list of those that don't have Vespers, but I don't know of any. How sad that the Greek Catholic churches refuse to follow their tradition.

Don't be too sad for us. Much as it would be great to have vespers at every parish, for a lot of parishes with far-flung parishoners getting to the parish on a Saturday night would constitute a difficulty. At the parish where I have attended them, as often as not it has been two or three of us and the priest.

How has this become a hallmark of authenticity in the way it has on here? Laudible as it may be for all of us to resume it, if it is impracticle on a number of levels, why is this continually brought against us as "Exhibit F" in the ongoing trial to somehow demonstrate we are ersatz easterners?

I love the BCC and lately I feel on here that some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics.

My parish has 6 to 8 people show up every week. I'm one of them. Father has the farthest drive of anyone, still it is held every week. There is simply no excuse for the BCC to not do the same.

I am glad you feel your practice superior. I am glad the 6 to 8 of you that attend are able to do so. I am glad that your priest can make that sacrifice.

Sorry if we don't make excuses - acceptable to you or otherwise.

Why is this continually brought against us as "Exhibit F" in the ongoing trial to somehow demonstrate we are ersatz easterners?

(Exhibits A, B, C, D, & E all being used for the other decried situations...)

I'm sure that many OCA and other Orthodox people are far flung and whatnot, but the point is the services are always held. It's not up for debate. It's the Byzantine tradition. If you choose to call Byzantine Catholics as "Ersatz", maybe they are. Sort of a cafeteria mentality. We'll take this and this, but not this or this.

Rome keeps telling the EC's to be authentic. Why aren't they?

And Monomakh, where did you get that list of parishes? Saint Barbaras in Dayton has been closed for years and there is no Saint Josephs Byzantine in Toledo.

We aren't because you say we aren't? By Etnick's standards we fall short?

I don't choose it, these insults and monikers - I accept that is how those with a view to look down on us - often smugly - will put it. And boy do they.

I am happy for you who are located "Where we say men and mankind" that you have found the true fullness of Byzantine praxis by your standards. I wish you well and hope that you flourish and grow in holiness.

I really just cannot take a lot more of ByzCath during our Great Lent though. Some time off may be needed. I love the BCC and on here the way some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics is just sad. Though it seems to be well accepted and allowable.

It is constant snyde mark and barb and criticism, one right after another, by folks inside and out... I just don't get what the attraction is to focus this VERY negative attention on our small church is all about.

The Eparchy of Parma's current website lists 35 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 2 have Vesperal Liturgies, 3 of the preceding also have Matins.

St. John Cathedral, Parma, OH: Vesperal Liturgy and Matins
St. Mary, Cleveland, OH: Vesperal Liturgy
St. John, Columbus, OH: Vespers
St. Nicholas, Lorain, OH: Vespers and Matins
St. Emilian, Brunswick, OH: Vespers and Matins

The Eparchy of Van Nuys website lists 19 parishes. 3 have Vespers, 1 has Vesperal Liturgy.

St. Stephen Pro-cathedral, Phoenix, AZ: Vesperal Liturgy
St. Thomas, Gilbert, AZ: Vespers
Holy Angels, San Diego, CA: Vespers
Our Lady of Pepetual Help, Albuquerque, NM: Vespers and Matins

Etnick, for an Orthodox Christian, I think you pay too much attention to Rome!



What ever gave you the idea that EC's are not authentic?

I think the EC's are quite authentic.

Just like the RC's are authentic.

Come to think of it,
the Orthodox and the Protestants are authentic also,
and in much the same way.

Sometimes we do what Rome does, even when not told to do so.

Sometimes, we stick to our ways, even if told otherwise.

Sometimes, we just ignore Rome. (just like RC's)


We're just like the Orthodox !

We ignore Rome as well as you do !

Maybe better !



PS: To paraphrase "The Onion Dome":

"... to ignore Rome,

now, THAT is the Tradition."

Alright, here we go:

Byzantine ritual and how it is practiced is not held up to "my" standards. I only know that my parish celebrates the full cycle of services. I really don't care what the Byzantine Catholic Churches do or don't do. I'm not a member of it anymore. However, until a short time ago, I was, and after being in the Orthodox church, I somehow feel like I was cheated out of the full praxis of the East, even though I WAS in an Eastern church from baptism.

A friend of mine suggested to their BC priest that they do the Great Canon for the fast. His response was "but that's Orthodox"! . How is this being faithful to Eastern tradition? Unless it's liturgy, we're not doing it.

I still don't see why the Eastern Catholic churches are afraid to be fully Eastern.

Annunciation is in the Eparchy pf Parma and we have Vespers, Matins, Pre-Sanctified Liturgy and the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete. Just to add to that list.

Well, it's kind of like the wreck on the highway, you just gotta look at it!

I went to 'St. Barbara's' in Dayton a little over a year ago. My wife's brother in law lives in Dayton and I wanted to check it out. It ended up being for Saturday evening liturgy and at a Roman Catholic church that they use, so yes their isn't a building they do have something going on. If they've closed since then I'm unaware of it.

Saint Joseph's in Toledo was a mistype, my bad.

Monomakh

Wow! Your parish is obviously the exception to the rule. How did this all come about?

Fr. Tom, plain and simple. He truly has a passion for being very authentic and doing things the "rite" way. OK no more lame jokes from me...

I hope that a spitting contest over this won't ensue, but Vespergy isn't what I would count in this list.

And if you run the numbers that Deacon Lance found and put them with Passaic and Pittsburgh, and the UGCC and Melkites, I don't think that my estimated 90% would be that far off. The good news is that 20 years ago the Vespers numbers were even less, so while a lot, and I mean a lot, must be done, it actually is better.

Monomakh

Iam asking the same question!!!

_________

Dear SS,

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Mt 5:11-12
I took the above from the Orthodox Study Bible so that the translation would not be criticized.

Apparently there is more importance attached to vespers than Divine Liturgy, for the two parishes the local Orthodox priest serves only has Divine Liturgy every other Sunday (at each parish). Our priests who serve three parishes find the time to have at least one Divine Liturgy each weekend.

I am saddened that Father Simeon is so severely criticized on this site. He is a good humble priest who attaches great importance to his Eastern faith.

I have come to believe that a few who post here have absolutely no interest in reuniting the Eastern or Western Churches, or even Eastern and Eastern Churches, and attempt to build a case why any union is unthinkable. I hope that I am wrong but that is my perception.

Fr. Deacon Paul

Deacon Paul,

It is not a question of valuing Vespers over Divine Liturgy. One of the authentic disciplines of the Byzantine East is that no priest may serve more than one Divine Liturgy on any one day (and no more than one Liturgy may be served on any one Holy Table). This is a discipline that has been kept in Eastern Orthodoxy, and one that we should be restoring. That restriction of one Liturgy per priest per day had also been the Western discipline, but it has gone away gradually via relaxation. Interesting, about a year ago, the RC Bishop of Scranton-Joseph Martino, in addressing the issue of clergy shortage in his Diocese, made reference to that ancient discipline, and the need to find a way to restore it in the West.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Father bless.

The training and use of Extraordinary ministers was established by particular law in 1999 by Metropolitan Archbishop Judson.

Are you certain that there are NO Orthodox juridictions who have made any arrangements via particular law or pastoral discretion to authorize a non-cleric to give the Eucharist?

Fr. Deacon Paul

Eucharistic Ministers were present in many Archeparchial parishes since 1991 when Archbishop Dolinay was installed. I remember one parish using four Eucharistic Ministers at one Divine Liturgy!

Ung

Fr. Deacon Paul,

Simple Sinner,


Believe --- there is one Christ.

He built one Church.

He does not expect us all to be the same, for He created us with different gifts.

He will judge --- on our belief, on what we say, and do, that reflects that belief (or not).

He will judge those who speak the Creed and don't really believe it, nor practice it in their lives.

He will judge those who state false belief, or who attack others falsely or unjustly.


Rejoice and be glad --- this is the day the Lord has made!

Rejoice and be glad --- this is the Church the Lord has made!


S'nami Boh!

Deacon Paul,
(1.) The particular law was drawn up pursuant to the CCEO of 1990.

(2.) Where I live, we are surrounded by parishes of various Orthodox jurisdictions. Not one of those jurisdictions allows for lay people distributing the Holy Eucharist. This is an invention of the Post-Vatican II Latin Church. Prior to Vatican II, this was never done liturgically in the West, either. In my town, there is a fairly substantial OCA parish (mostly people of Rusyn & Lemko ancestry). Their deacon tells me that he distributes the Holy Eucharist, with the special blessing of the Bishop, only when the size of the crowd necessitates it (i.e. Christmas, Pascha, etc.)

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Fr.Deacon Robert,

It seems that if Divine Liturgy can't be serve on a Sunday, then the parish family which has had to fast from the Eucharist should have an opportunity during the week, or on a Saturday morning. Could this be be one of the reasons that most Eastern churches are losing people to the omnipresent Roman Catholic Churches with at least three vigil/Sunday masses in a town of any size?
Christ said "I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now continued with Me three days and have nothing to eat. And I do not want to send them away hungry"..MT 15:32-33 Our people should be given spiritual bread (Eucharist) and not turned away.

Also, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him, how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, or for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Mt 12:4

Our priests are few and precious and they feed the flock as much as they can. Is this wrong?

Fr Deacon Paul

Fr. Dn.,

I thought that this was the case in most Orthodox jurisdictions. Only in special circumstances are Deacons allowed to distribute the Eucharist.

Ung

Deacon Paul,

There is no prohibition in the Byzantine East, even in Eastern Orthodoxy, of daily Divine Liturgy. Locally, here, St. Tikhon's OCA monastery celebrates Divine Liturgy every morning at 7AM. St. Michael's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Scranton has a daily Divine Liturgy. I have seen this done at Greek Orthodox parishes. I was just making the point that your local Orthodox parish was observing its discipline, and that it was not valuing Vespers over Divine Liturgy.
I think I should also make the point that Eucharistic discipline has become way too lax in Catholicism since Vatican II. There is virtually NO fast (what is one hour?). Very few go to confession, yet everybody lines up for Holy Communion? I like the genuine Eastern tradition of attending Vespers & Confession (some Orthodox priests and jurisdictions go to extremes in rquiring confession before every reception) the night before receiving the Holy Eucharist, along with the recitation of the preparatory prayers. Reception of the Holy Eucharist then becomes something very special. In some churches (especially Latin ones), many don't even know what they are lining up for. You'd think the priest was handing out bon-bons.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

You are correct. Distribution of the Holy Eucharist is a priestly function. A deacon distributing is considered to be "extraordinary". Years back, I was told that it was also considered "extraordinary" for us. The use of lay people, from what I can tell, is a post-Vatican II Latinization.

Dn. Robert

Some comments:

Ung-Certez,

Thanks for posting your account. That rumor has been making it’s way around for a few weeks now. Accurate information is always appropriate.


Father David Straut,

Your observations are quite correct. An “Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist” should be used only in extraordinary conditions. Unfortunately we have lost much of our Ortho-Praxis and Ortho-Ethos. No one would probably object to a deacon distributing the Eucharist in a case where the priest cannot (i.e., broken arm). But for it to occur on a regular basis is not appropriate. When the bishops promulgated the Particular Law they should have set a standard appropriate to the Byzantine Tradition, and not attempted to accommodate anything else.


Monomakh,

A priest friend called me tonight and recounted the parishes that celebrate proper Vespers. Your statistics are pretty correct. If one included the parishes that did the Vespers/Divine Liturgy combination the parishes that celebrated Vespers would rise to no more than 3% according to our accounting. [And the Vesper/Divine Liturgy combination is not correct for ordinary Saturday evenings in parishes. It is modeled after the idea currently popular among some in the Latin Church that a service without Eucharist is not worth having.]


AMM,

Rome issued a Liturgical Instruction that did direct the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover what they lost and to match organic development to their respective Orthodox Church. Unfortunately the Council of Hierarchs clearly rejected the Liturgical Instruction in promulgating the Revised Divine Liturgy.


Vespers and Matins are not impractical. In fact, they are necessary. Unless our future is centered on liturgical prayer we will not survive. Liturgical prayer, correctly done, grows parishes. I agree that attendance would be low at first, and probably never rise above 40-50% of the parish. Still, that prayer is necessary. The music need not be complicated or even Ruthenian (though most of the ‘regular’ music is pretty simple). Even the lack of a priest should not stop the praying of these services as they can be prayed as simple Reader’s Services.

I can understand that to some it might seem like many on the Forum are focused on the negative. That is because the way forward is clear and our bishops are not leading us. Rome gave us directives to restore what is ours and be authentic to ourselves. We have excellent Ruthenian recension books. And still our bishops imitate the Roman Catholics when almost anyone should be able to see that it will not work. Our bishops have done what is wrong. We have not just the right but the responsibility to appeal to their superiors in Rome to do what is correct. And the bishops can very easily do what is correct and repeal the Revised Divine Liturgy and promulgate the official Ruthenian Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

I will state again, the way forward is to make normative our own Ruthenian liturgical books (and not ban them!). Prepare texts that are accurate and free from political agendas, that respect what is memorized by the people. Also prepare music that respects what is memorized and present it in a way that allows for growth for “what works” from other music traditions. Make the cathedrals examples of fantastic Liturgy, and through education, example and encouragement raise up the whole Church. It can be done. And if it is not done, if we continue on the Revisionist path, the Ruthenian Church will not survive. Already I find myself planting roots in the Melkite Church, whose Liturgy is far closer to the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy than is the Pittsburgh Revised Divine Liturgy. I am surely unimportant and have contributed little. Yet I am one more example of people being driven away by bad Liturgy.


Father Deacon Paul,

Who exactly is persecuted falsely? It seems that those who oppose the Revised Divine Liturgy are the ones arguing with the texts and theology given by Rome and those that support the Revision are rejecting the directives from Rome. I would really appreciate it if you can be specific in who you believe to be making false accusations (and substantiate it) or withdraw your charge.


No. It is necessary to see our liturgical tradition as whole. Vespers, Matins, the Hours are all preparation for the Divine Liturgy. In a way, omitting Vespers and Matins is not a lot different than skipping antiphons and litanies and other parts of the Divine Liturgy. Do you remember the “Low Mass” where the people skipped right to the first verse of the antiphon, did the “Only-Begotten Son” and then the priest intoned for “Holy God”. Same principle.


Has Father Simeon been severely criticized? I don’t see it anywhere and think your accusation is a false one. I would imagine that he is like every other priest who obeys the directive of his archbishop, more so since he is the rector of the cathedral (and the disagreement here is not with him but what the Metropolitan has mandated). I do not know him well but I daresay he would be very open to a full slate of services celebrated correctly (that is, in accordance with the official Ruthenian liturgical books and not the Pittsburgh Revised books).

There are so many more points here that could be made….

The bishops have it within their power to easily undo this fiasco and to rescind the Revised Divine Liturgy. Let us pray that they will do so, and promulgate the official Ruthenian Recension as normative for the Church.

John

My Dear Fr Deacon,

Well, it is dangerous to make absolute statements, I know, but I have never even heard of such a thing in any Orthodox Jurisdiction anywhere. The mentality of Orthodox people is such that much smaller departures from tradition can cause grave problems in parishes. I would fully expect most parishioners would abandon a parish as simply "not Orthodox" were they to see a laymen (let alone a laywoman!) pick up a Chalice and attempt to distribute Holy Communion. I'm not trying to be dramatic. I believe this to be absolutely true.

Fr David Straut

John,



I agree with you that the Vespers and Matins are necessary. I disagree with your estimation that it would rise to 40-50%. SS. Peter and Paul in Ben Lomond, in their brief shining moment before the break-up, had 1500 parishioners and they only got 200 at Vespers. Now that is an outstanding number, but only 13% of the parish. Most Orthodox parishes in my experience don't fare that well. I also agree that without a healthy liturical life we will not survive. I disagree celebrating Vespers, Matins, or an unabbreviated Liturgy is necessarily the key. If it were why the same precipitous decline in numbers among the Orthodox who celebrate Vespers/Matins and unabbreviated Liturgy as with Eastern Catholcis who generally only celebrate Liturgy and that abbreviated? The problem of Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, are far more complex and multi-layered, than lack of Vespers or Litanies in the Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

John,



Was I not replying to Simple Sinner, empathizing with him? His is one of many similar comments. Couldn't you sense his despair with the tone of this topic? He and many others are tired of our Church getting beat up. You can't blame it all on the RDL, for there was a similar attitude even before the change. Are not all the faithful important that I can try to relieve Simple Sinners discomfort with Christ's words?

So, the rector of the Cathedral has not been criticized? I don't read nearly every post but I recall at least four different strings where this has been brought up, and not in the most charitable way. Is it constructive to keep repeating or is there an unspoken contempt (perhaps it is not, but it doesn't come across as constructive to me)? I do not think that repeating this on the forum is going to change anything. It would be more constructive for those who feel so strongly to offer to Father to help sing the vespers on a prearranged Saturday night.

Tired and ready for bed.
Fr Deacon Paul

Dear Etnick,

I do not wish to be provocative at all, still less to engage in ecclesiastical one-upsmanship, but we need to always to remember the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. As soon as we compare ourselves to others, we stray far from communion with our Lord.

The full cycle of services for a Sunday or a Great Feastday is: Ninth Hour with Small Vespers, Small Compline and Great Vespers, Midnight Office, Matins and First Hour, and finally Third Hour and Sixth Hour before the Divine Liturgy.

I have had the privilege of serving two parishes in my priestly ministry: the first in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese and my current parish in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

In the Antiochian parish, we had the great blessing of being able to serve an aggregate of services on Saturdays & Eves of Feasts consisting of Ninth Hour, Great Vespers, and Small Compline with the pre-communion canon, while on Sunday and Feastday mornings we were able to serve the aggregate of Midnight Office and Matins before the Divine Liturgy. As you see from the above list, we neglected to serve Small Vespers and seldom served the services of the Hours.

In my current parish I am truly blessed to have people used to and able to do the typical Russian pattern of services: Vigil (Great Vespers, Matins, First Hour) on Saturday evenings and the Eves of Feasts, and Third Hour and Sixth Hour before the Divine Liturgy on Sunday and Feastday mornings. What's missing? Small Vespers again, as well as Small Compline and Midnight Office.

I do not know of an Orthodox parish that celebrates the full cycle of services. As wonderful as that might be, it is probably beyond the strength of nearly all Orthodox people living outside of monasteries today.

I have a dear priest friend who is the rector of an OCA parish. He was able after about 25 years of hard work in his parish to finally introduce Matins and First Hour after Saturday evening Vespers each week. (The parish already had been doing the Vigil Service on many of the Great Feasts since he got there.) What a blessed achievement. Since your parish already does Vigil, you know how wonderful that is! But in at least some OCA parishes, no one has had the opportunity to attend Sunday or Festal Matins for their whole lives.

The point is: we need to encourage others to deepen in their commitment to our Orthodox liturgical tradition. As a pastor, I also believe that people grow gradually. If we demand that change be instantaneous and dramatic, we run the risk of losing many people on the one hand and fostering only short-lived change on the other.

Fr David Straut

Holy Resurrection in Tennessee has been celebrating the Great Canon (Both in the 1st and 5th week) for at least six years, albeit always as something that a group of some of us crazy laity insist on doing, even without benefit of clergy.

Vespers is always being prayed on Saturday evenings, and Matins on Sunday mornings as well. This is not being done in the context of the parish mission, but it is fairly well-known that it is going on in private homes. Isolated individuals are beginning to gather to pray these services in communion instead of in isolation. (And pray them in their fullness. All kathismata, unabbreviated. All canons, unabbreviated. Sunday Matins routinely will run 3+ hours.) Preliminary talks are underway for groups to gather for additional readers services of Vespers on weeknights. Others have begun to publicize regularly scheduled praying of the little hours on certain weekdays.

The numbers are still small, but in the last year or so have been growing. While once there may have been one or two in isolation, now there are a few groups of two or three. But even this is significant in a mission that has only about 35 members spread over a few thousand square miles.

If our experience is any example, the people are hungry for liturgical prayer, and are not going to be denied. With any luck, perhaps one day the clergy will wake up and utter Gandhi's famous line, "There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader!"

Speaking of "full cycle of services";

Isn't the true standard for a full cycle of services, the celebration of daily services? I keep reading about how Orthodoxy is a truly liturgical religion, about how many great Russian and Greek saints -- parish priests, not monks -- celebrated Divine Liturgy and the requisite portions of the Horologion every day, about how Orthodox parishes are supposed to have daily Matins and Vespers, etc; and yet, how many Orthodox parishes in the West actually have daily services? From what I know, there are fewer and fewer Orthodox parishes in the "Old World" that have daily services. Among the Patriarchs, only Pavle of Serbia celebrates Matins and Divine Liturgy every day.

In a previous thread I enumerated the Orthodox parishes that have daily services, and I don't remember anyone ever adding to that list. It seems that far too many Orthodox parishes have full services for Saturday night and Sunday... and nothing at all for the rest of the week.

Now, how about the Greek Catholics? They may not have Vespers and Matins, but at least there is a fair number of Eastern Catholic parishes that have daily worship, even if it is by means of daily and abbreviated Divine Liturgies. It is not the ideal; it may be a deviation from Byzantine tradition; and yet, does not this practice keep sight of the heart of the matter -- the DAILY LITURGICAL WORSHIP OF THE LORD?

What is the use of a beautiful liturgical tradition when it can't even be practiced anymore, and effectively exists only on paper? This is the question I've been asking every so often in various Eastern Christian fora, and nobody has been able to give me a reply. What I know of the Byzantine rite in its fullness entrances me beyond measure, but the painful fact remains that it seems impracticable outside the monasteries. Perhaps it is time for the Orthodox to heed the call of the 1917-1918 Council in Moscow for the development of a "Parish Typikon" that will make a daily cycle of services practicable on the parish level. If not, the Orthodox talk about how theirs is a "Church that celebrates the Divine Liturgy" would continue to look like wishful thinking. I say this without intending to be offensive or insulting. I'm just stating what I see. A truly liturgical Church worships everyday, not just on Sundays.

As a Roman Catholic who seeks to attend Mass and recites parts of the Liturgy of the Hoursd everyday, I simply cannot imagine a liturgical life limited only to Sundays.

Yeah, What's wrong with us Orthodox? We ought to be ashamed of ourselves! We've been too lazy up 'till now. AsianPilgrim, you have shown us the way. I believe that the modern Roman Rite Morning Prayer (Lauds), Mass, and Evening Prayer (Vespers) could all be done without hurrying in under an hour. True efficiency. That's what the Orthodox need.

Fr David

Dear Father;

Well, I agree that the current Roman liturgy is minimalistic, but its better than nothing!

It is not a question of efficiency. 15 minute Lauds and 12 minute Vespers and 25 minute Masses are, doubtless, NOT what the East needs. And I've written elsewhere about the need to give Catholics the option of using the full Western Divine Office (as represented by the medieval, Benedictine and 1568 Breviaries) instead of the truncated remnants we have today, so have no fear that I'm advocating that the East follow us Romans. In fact, I'll be the first to beg the Orthodox to NOT follow the way of the Roman liturgical reform.

My question has to do with fidelity to the ideal of DAILY LITURGICAL PRAYER. The Eastern Orthodox books I've read also present this as the ideal; why aren't more Orthodox parishes doing it? Between minimalistic daily liturgical services and no services at all, which is preferable?

Just to return to an early comment regarding the CCEO. A comparison of the CCEO with the Latin Code suggests that, in portions of the text which were not peculiarly Eastern in focus, there was little originality, but much mirroring. I'd not give much credence to the thought that Eastern canonists toiled laboriously over it. Rather, I suspect that Curial gnomes (minutante) of what has been correctly labeled 'the colonial office' are largely responsible for its content.

Many years,

Neil

Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for the post. I will respectfully disagree with much of what you have written. But, for the sake of the argument let us use the 20% figure (although I think my local ROCOR parish does approach 40% and the OCA parish maybe 30%). For a parish that gets about 150 people at the Sunday Divine Liturgy this is 30 people. We must get away from this idea that prayer is not worth anything unless the temple is full of people. If the prayer of a righteous man is powerful (James 5:16) the prayers of 30 righteous men are extremely powerful. I’ve seen the praying of Vespers and Matins by 30+ people together with the Divine Liturgy literally transform a parish (that is, adding Vespers then Matins to a parish that already had a good Sunday Divine Liturgy). And even two people praying Vespers and Matins in addition to the Divine Liturgy can transform a parish.

I will agree that the problems are complex. The way forward is to renew our parishes into centers of prayer – liturgical prayer. We gather as Church to worship the Trinity. If our prayer is not to be the prayer of the Byzantine Church – Vespers, Matins and a full Divine Liturgy – then there is really no reason to be Byzantine at all! Look at the ROCOR parishes in greater Pittsburgh. Parishes of all flavors are dying everywhere (including from the loss of population to more economically vibrant areas of the country). Some of the ROCOR parishes there are thriving. Why? A friend in Pittsburgh tells me that the ROCOR parish near him is full of Greek Catholics. There is much food for thought there.

--


Father Deacon Paul,

Cannot you see the sense of despair in those who seek the fullness of the Byzantine Liturgy?

Cannot you see the hurt in the people who have had the foundation of the way they speak to God shaken by being needlessly forced to abandon the words and music they have prayed all their lives?

Consider that the long term criticism of what our bishops have done might be just because for a long time our bishops have sought to prevent us from praying our own liturgical tradition correctly?

I seem to remember that you suggested that people like me who cannot accept the RDL should leave. Why do you have no sympathy for us? Do we not have the right to discuss these issues and to petition our bishops and even the Holy Father?

Yes, all the faithful are important. But suggesting that we are making false accusations is, at best, an improper use of Scripture. It is wrong of you to make false accusations under the guise of attempting to provide comfort.


No, he has not been criticized at all. He has no control over the issue. The criticism is about what has been mandated and is directed at the decisions of those who are responsible – the bishops. If the rubrics tells you, as a deacon, to enter the altar through the south door after praying a litany and you enter instead through the north door (or – ugh! – the Holy Doors) is it not appropriate to point out the rubric to you until you get it correct? Such is not a criticism against your person but against an action you have taken. But if the rubric is wrong and the bishops are wrongly telling you to enter through the north doors (or the Holy Doors) is the criticism for the incorrect rubric a personal attack against you? No. Neither is it a personal attack against pastors or bishops. And it is this second situation that we have here. The criticism is offered against what has been mandated. It is not personal against a specific individual. It is legitimate criticism. Here we have a situation where everyone can review the official books and see that the bishops have prohibited following them, and ordered something that is really disobedient to both our own liturgical tradition and to the directives of Rome. And this at a time when the Holy Father has guaranteed the right of Roman Catholic priests to pray an older form of the Latin Mass. It seems to me that the criticism given to what our bishops have mandated is very just indeed, and is Sensus Fidelum in action.

John

Father David, By saying that my parish celebrates a full cycle of services, I meant that we have Vespers every Saturday, the third and ninth hour and then Liturgy on Sunday.

Also add the proper lenten services, (Great Canon, Pre-Sanctified), and that is what I meant by a full cycle of services.

Well, how about daily services....

Not that I wish to be provocative, but can somebody please explain to me why daily services -- even, say, the singing of Third and Sixth Hours -- are not possible in most Orthodox parishes.

Many (most?) of their priests must work a secular job in addition to their priestly duties making it unfeasable.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Parishioners work also. How many would actually be able to make it? Obviously only the older retired people.

John,
I tried to find my original quote but was unsuccessful. As I seem to remember it there were two or three vocal people who were very vociferous in their objections and very obviously lost their peace over the translation and music changes. I believe that I stated that if they were that upset then it may be better for them to leave (rather than become bitter). It wasn't coldhearted as you make it sound.

I did find my quote which still holds true today:
We are a "curiosity" to the Roman Church and an unwanted stepchild to the Orthodox it appears. We should be able to relate well to the early Christian Church and its relationships with the Romans and Jews. Maybe we should carry our crosses and become close communities as they did.

Our Rusyn Greek Catholic Church probably NEVER celebrated the Divine Offices to the standards of the Muscovites or even the Kyivan standards, and certainly not up to the royal Constantinopolitan level. I recall reading how poorly trained our priests were around the 17th century and were truly "second class" to the Hungarian Roman priests. We are a peasant church. Our people (think about it)did not sing harmoniously, but shouted (joyfully) to the Lord with all their hearts. (I re-experienced this last summer in Slovakia). "But this is not refined;" this is not the way we sing in America.
So the music has been adapted several times over the past 50 years. Now that we will have a new Cantor Institute leader it will probably change over the next few years and .... here we go again....

So where is my rambling going?? You know, in terms of eternity it really doesn't matter.

With regard to my use of scripture....... its what I am called to do. If the Spirit moves me to use it, I shall do so until my pastor or bishop tells me not to.

O Lord, be merciful to me a sinner.
Fr. Deacon Paul

How about Readers' Services? Anyway...

This is my point. It seems to me that the drift in many ByzCath threads is that the Greek Catholics are somehow liturgically inferior to the Eastern Orthodox because they "do not celebrate full services" and "Latinize the liturgy" and "abbreviate too much." Now, all of that may be true. But you know what? At least a large number of Greek Catholic communities have daily liturgical worship, no matter how imperfect, no matter how "hybrid." The point is -- they pray!

As for the Orthodox: the Saturdays and Sundays may scintillate with shaking chandaliers and full services and lots of incense, but the churches are empty the rest of the week. How can that be the true portrait of a "liturgical church"?

As long as the Orthodox cannot even fulfil their own ideal of daily Matins and Vespers, I don't think they have the right to look down on the Greek Catholics. Greek Catholic liturgical practice is flawed? Well... so is Orthodox praxis.

I have a Greek-Filipino friend who converted to Catholicism, no kidding. Among other things, he was scandalized by the fact that the Greek Orthodox missionary priest in our city spent the day at the parish office, eating, sleeping and going to the malls and parks, while the church remained empty all week save on Sunday mornings. He could not help comparing this example to that of the despised "Latins" who at least had parishes that had masses and prayer services all day, not all of it led by priests. He is currently a Dominican tertiary while canonically remaining a Greek Catholic.

My own spiritual director is a French Jesuit with biritual faculties who once served in Romania as a Greek Catholic priest. He would sometimes relate to me his experiences and memories of his missionary work and, according to him, the main difference was that the Greek Catholic priests would sing the full Divine Liturgy every day while the Romanian Orthodox would do so only on Sundays. It really made an impression on him -- as it has on me.

C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY !

An old witticism hereabouts goes “If you want to know how to be Orthodox just ask a Greek Catholic. Even though their priests don’t do it their people spend hours complaining how it should be.”

What I see as important is if it is relevant. Why is it better to have one Sunday three hour Liturgy for 30 people instead of two tandem 90 minute Liturgies for 300?

Our old defenders of orthodoxy are today branded troublemakers by the new breed of despot clergy. Arrogance is not sugar when in the priest’s silver spoon here in the New World where even the peasants have PhDs. The post Vatican II perspective of our trinitarian armed cross goes: “the top bar is for the cross God gives us to bear it’s the smallest, the middle arm is that which the world gives us to haul it’s the largest, the bottom is the cross the bishop gives us to carry, he’s crooked”.

If this thread was for Byzantine Catholics specifically rather than Greco Catholics in general forgive my trespasses.

We don't even advertise regularly anywhere at our little UGCC apostolate/outreach in a closed RC school and attendance at the usual Saturday night Vespers led by a deacon is about 15-20. We have people who drive over an hour one way just for Vespers. We also started with Compline and some other services in people's homes until finding a more permanent place.

There are still people out there who are willing to gather and pray according to the Greek Catholic tradition of the Church and who are craving a solid liturgical heritage.
FDRLB

Dear AsianPilgrim,

I hesitate to answer these posts of yours because it doesn't seem right to speak about my own spiritual life. But, lest you continue to think that Orthodox Christians just pray on the weekends, I guess I'll say something.

Many priests try to incorporate the daily services into the liturgical life of their parishes and their own private lives. I know of several Orthodox parishes that have daily services every day: Vespers or Matins, sometimes both.

I myself am a priest who works outside his parish and lives a half hour drive away from his church. My parish therefore has a pretty full cycle of services on the Eve and morning of the Lord's Day, Great Feasts, and some minor Feasts. I also serve mornings and evenings each day of Holy Week, from the Friday before Palm Sunday through the beginning of Bright Week. Of course I must take unpaid vacation from work to do this, but it is a great blessing to serve every day and receive Holy Communion. On days I do not serve in Church, I try to sing Ninth Hour, Vespers, Small Compline and the Midnight Office at home by myself in the icon corner. I do the services simply, as reader's services, but I chant all the parts that are appointed to be chanted and I have an abbreviated system for reading the Kathismata of the Psalter. I really enjoy doing these services. I wish I could do more.

For the record, I admire the fact that Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics serve the Liturgy every day. I really wish that I could too.

I just wish that you could find it in your heart to stop denigrating Orthodox Christians and minimizing the great efforts that they make to be faithful to the Eastern liturgical tradition. One small example: I spend more time standing before the altar of God on Saturday evening and Sunday morning than a typical Roman Rite priest would do were he to serve a 30 minute daily Mass six days a week, an hour long Mass on Saturday evening, and an hour long Mass on Sunday morning. Doesn't that count for anything in your book?

Fr David Straut

1. Many health experts say several smaller meals are better than one big meal physically. Wouldn't the same apply to spiritual food?
2. If one is studying for a test, more is learned from regular study over a period of days than 'cramming' it all in one long session. Wouldn't the same be applied to spiritual sanctification and knowledge obtained a the Liturgy?
3. Saint John Chrysostom declared, “the work of a priest is done on earth, but is ranked among heavenly ordinances...While still remaining in the flesh, the priest re-presents the ministry of the angels in heaven (III,4).” The angels worship God continually...shouldn't be do it more than once a week?

The Internet has shown us a lesson on attendance: many companies and parishes spent a lot of time and money on a web site only to discover that very few 'came'. So, they stop updating. Then, when people come to 'visit online' they see the latest from '2005' and do not return....how many times does this happen? In short, if the site is updated those that come to visit online will grow, though sometimes slowly. The same would apply to a daily liturgy (that can also be done in the evenings).

So what Ung-Certez is describing is actually a good thing???? I'm getting lost.

I believe there were more than two or three, but I was one of those who certainly lost their peace when the reformed Liturgy was forced onto the Church. I had to leave(to be fair there were doctrinal reasons also).

But I was bitter and I could not attend services in that state of mind. So you were correct. I have found great peace in the Holy Orthodox Church.

A good thing that the still use the RDL books? That most of the singing is done by the cantor? That they use an EEM?

Ung

You are called by the Spirit to use the Holy Scriptures to make false accusations? Wow!

As we are at an impasse I can only recommend that you speak with your pastor about this specific issue and ask him to teach you what it means to accuse falsely, and why you should not do it.

As to your stating that your original context was not as cold-hearted as you state, it is curious that your sympathy is only for those who support the reform who appear tired from hearing from those who support the Ruthenian tradition. We have a whole Church – mostly of older people – who (without good reason) have had the way the very words and music they have used for 40 years taken from them, and told it was wrong (that is the message that comes with the prohibition). Listen to them and you will understand that the very foundation of they way they communicate with the Lord has been destroyed. They have been hurt incredibly by their bishops. It was not intentional but it is real. It is really embarrassing that so few in the Church care about them, let alone speak up for them.

It depends. The two don’t make for even comparisons. Spending 2 hours the eves of Sundays and Feasts praying the Vigil (Vespers and Matins) and another 90 minutes on Sunday morning at Divine Liturgy does not mean one is not also praying during the week (i.e., smaller spiritual meals each day). Plus there is a difference between personal prayer at home and corporate prayer with the gathered Church.


Not necessarily. One can look at the weekdays as being spent in spiritual preparation to receive the Eucharist at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. While daily Eucharist is certainly part of the received tradition one must be very careful not to adopt the ‘more is better’ idea. Remember the misguided folks who used to run from Mass to Mass to receive the Eucharist several times a day thinking it made them holier.


I agree that there is nothing worse than visiting a website and seeing “Coming events for 2005”. But I would not make a comparison between websites and Eucharist. I would also note that we must be careful not to consider prayer worthless unless one receives the Eucharist. And that the custom of evening Divine Liturgies has come at the cost of the almost total loss of real fasting in the Church.

No John--they used to run from altar to altar or mass to mass to SEE the Host, not partake of it, even to the point of yelling out to the priest: "Hold up! Hold up higher Sir!"

So were there more than 75 people at the DL in Munhall when you went? Isn't that what the Ruthenian particular law states is the number when you can have a Eucharistic Minister?

There is a remarkable essay by the ROCOR priest, Fr. John Townsend, in which he outlines a liturgical ideal for Orthodox parish life in the USA

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/devotion/on_worship.htm

I found it both challenging and rigorous -- too rigorous, perhaps -- and I think that everybody on this list, EC or RC, EO or OO, would benefit by reading it.

It's not my judgment to make, because it's not my church and I'm not familiar with these things. There does seem to be an opinion expressed that more frequent short liturgies are better.

We don't have daily services. Many people travel a fair amount of distance to make it to church, which is not atypical of Orthodox parishes. Daily services would in all likelihood either be lightly or non attended. Each individual is really responsible for maintaining a prayer routine outside of church. I know our priest also visits the sick and elderly during the week to take them the Eucharist. They are people who can't even make it on Sunday or to church at all.

Were we to move to more frequent services, I would like to see something along the lines of vespers or hours. Things to prepare you for Sunday when the Lord's resurrection is celebrated in the Eucharist. I would honestly find it hard to mentally prepare for receiving on a much more frequent basis. There's also the difficulty of the total fast from the night before. I honestly don't know how people or priests manage to do that on a daily basis. Confession would also be an issue, as I would find it difficult to confess on the frequency needed to receive daily.

Father, bless!

Nowhere did I ever say that the Orthodox do not pray except on Sundays. And even if too many Orthodox did so (and I don't know enough to generalize about that), there are too many Roman Catholics who pray only on Sundays (if they pray at all) for me to cast a stone against the Orthodox in this regard. I am sure that the Orthodox have more than a thing or two to teach Catholics (Roman or Eastern) when it comes to private prayers. (Jesus Prayer, anyone?) The points in the posts I've made so far are about LITURGICAL prayer in churches and/or chapels.

Nowhere too have I said that the Orthodox are "too lazy." You are from ROCOR and I've held up ROCOR's liturgical praxis (for Sundays and feasts) more than once as a model for Byzantine Christians to follow. And you have written more than once about the long periods that you spend "in the fire" on Saturdays and Sundays, and I have great admiration for what you do. (I remember that someone on this forum once commented that you spend more time doing the Proskomedia than many EC priests spend celebrating the Sunday Divine Liturgy!). What you do certainly counts for A LOT in God's book, which is the only book that we should care about. My book is that of a mere sinner.

And, if you'll carefully read my posts (although I concede that we can't all be expected to carefully read posts all the time), I have neither called for the institution of daily Divine Liturgy (except during Lent, of course) without Matins or Vigil in Orthodox parish churches, nor have I advocated that the Orthodox adopt the laxity and the bare efficiency of Latin liturgical praxis. Yes, I'm Roman Catholic, I attend the Novus Ordo on weekdays, I use the Paul VI breviary, but that's only because there is nothing else on the menu available to me. I certainly wish that there was more. I also hope that the Orthodox will NEVER imitate the Catholic liturgical reform. I did mention the project of a "Parish Typikon" as called for by the Russian Council of 1917-1918 but I don't think that such a Typikon, if ever devised (and that seems highly unlikely) should be as relaxed as current Catholic (Roman or Eastern) praxis.

The only thing I'd like to see is that the Orthodox be true to their own ideals. If that is not possible, well... who am I to judge?

My actual points are much simpler:

1) If Greek Catholic liturgical praxis has its shortcomings (DL without the requisite Hours, lack of Vespers and Matins, abbreviations, Latinizations, etc. etc.) so does Orthodox liturgical praxis, at least in the New World. The Orthodox Church itself holds up daily Matins and Vespers (and, when possible, daily Divine Liturgy) as the ideal, and it is no secret that most Orthodox parishes fall short of this ideal.

Ergo;

2) There is no point in constantly bashing Greek Catholic liturgical praxis as something utterly inferior to Orthodox praxis in every way -- which seems to be the trend in ByzCath. If the Greek Catholics have faulty services, they make up for it by worshiping daily. If the Orthodox have nice weekend services, well... they have empty churches on weekdays. Just about balances things.

In these points, there is no hint of personal condemnation against the character or the person of any Orthodox, whether priest or laity. Surely, Orthodox priests who have to work to support their beloved families cannot be expected to celebrate the liturgy in their parishes every day, and neither can busy laypeople be condemned for not making it to daily Matins or Vespers. I perfectly understand that; after all, I'm also a corporate rat. I know how tiring it can be to pray even if only a little after a whole day of meetings and functions and deadlines. Sometimes, I'm reduced to reading Lauds or Vespers or reciting the Rosary while in a taxicab, rushing to yet another appointment.


I'd like to end with a relatively off-topic thought. Why is it that Orthodox priests have to support themselves and look for a living? By the hands of a priest, grace is imparted and the heavens are brought down to the Earth; by his hands, we receive counsel and comfort as from the Lord Himself. Surely it isn't unreasonable to expect communities to support their priests? (No, I am NOT bashing the Orthodox. I just find the notion that priests have to work for a living to be unthinkable. At the very least, a community ought to help their priest find work that will be lucrative enough to send the children through school and still be flexible enough to allow him to focus on his priestly work.)

AFAIK, the people on this board who bash the liturgical practices of the Byzantine Catholics are themselves Byzantine Catholics. I think you're argument is really with them.



My parish supports our priest, although in my opinion not well enough. He does not have to work. My previous parish was a mission, but the congregation still fully supported the priest and his family. He did not work. The other handful of parishes I've been to all supported their priest and he was dedicated to being the pastor of the parish. I know of a few instances where the priest's wife would work to supplement their income.

Some parishes are too small and poor to support a priest and his family, and there is just nothing they can do. Some parishes probably could give more, but don't for various reasons (i.e. the dues mentality).

Having to work is far from ideal, but I would not say unthinkable. Unfortunately sometimes it is unavoidable.

What I and others here are stating is that we want the Byzantine Liturgy, celebrated correctly and with texts and music that are both correct and respect what we have memorized after praying them for 40 years. We hold up as examples equally both our Ruthenian recension liturgical books and the praxis of our own parishes that had full and vibrant liturgical lives and parishes from both the Orthodox and other Greek Catholic Churches (which shows that the Byzantine Liturgy works!). Many of us have spent much of our adult lives working towards this. We now find that we are denied a correct celebration of the Divine Liturgy. So, so many of us have been spiritually hurt for no reason whatsoever. One expects to suffer greatly for Christ. One does not expect one's Church to be the author of this great suffering.

Please consider the discussions here in light of the following:


The way forward is for the bishops to rescind the Revised Divine Liturgy and to promulgate the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, with texts and music that respect what has been memorized over lifetimes of praying it. Establish a “minimum” (i.e., the shortest form allowed) and slowly raise the parish celebration over a decade by education, example, and encouragement. I continue to fail to understand the opposition by some (especially our bishops) to our own Liturgy.

Well, does Father do at least some services during the week? Just asking. If there's none, I won't go on attack dog mode.

Dear Administrator;

Your sentiments exactly mirror the sentiments of not a few Roman Catholics (including myself) regarding the liturgy. At least, you guys are fighting for the 1941 Recension, which is a full and faithful recension of the Divine Liturgy. As for us, we are stuck with a choice between the 1962 and 1970 Missals, and in case you aren't aware, even traditionalist liturgists are critical of the 1961-1962 Roman books because it is already a half-reformed liturgy, with its truncated Holy Week, truncated Communion Rite, etc.

No one is calling current Greek Catholic practice (especially in the BCC) as perfect; but it certainly is superior to the practice in most Roman Catholic parishes today!

Recluse,

I'm glad you have found peace. They rest of us who remain shall have to stand steadfast in defense of true Byzantine Orthodoxy.

Ung

I am confused? Are you insinuating that the Holy Orthodox Church is not "true Byzantine Orthodoxy"?

Or perhaps you are saying that you will continue to fight against the reform and for the Ruthenian recension.

I hope it is option two.

.. fightimg for true Orthodoxy within the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America" (aka the Ruthenian Metropolia).

Ung

Just wondering if anyone noticed...at the Metropolitan Cantor Institute site, there is a note that says they will be putting music on the site first, before publishing any, to get feedback and comments from cantors... IF that is what I read, then I believe it is a step in the right direction...

Admin,

Here is a thought. We all realize that the majority of the people who go to church are from the "Greatest Generation." With that said what Liturgy, Religious Instructions, and Values were they taught? Whatever it was it seemed to work.

Counter this with their offspring and their grandchildren's generation. What Liturgy, Religious Instruction, and Values were they taught and are still learning. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be working.

C. I. X.

I wonder if it is what they were exposed to rather what they were not exposed to; television. Unless you are a black Baptist who goes to church?

The list is clearly incomplete. St. Gabriel has weekly Vesperal Liturgy on Saturday, and Matins on first and third Sundays.

hawk

St. Basil the Great Byzantine Catholic Parish in Los Gatos, California has the following:

Matins on Sundays and some weekdays;
Vespers on certain days
Third and / or Sixth Hour on certain weekdays;
Pre-Sanctified Liturgy on Fridays of Great Lent

Seems like a wonderful parish of the Eparchy of Van Nuys. I have a Filipino-American friend who attends Divine Liturgy and Vespers there regularly.

http://www.stbasil.org/index.html

Many videos of Vespers and Divine Liturgy can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/katolikogroup

(From page 11 of the total video list, onwards)

We can also add this parish:

http://www.stjohnchrysostom.org/

Daily Matins and Vespers, Great Canon of St. Andrew, Presanctified Liturgy, Akathists, etc.

Rosary?

Well, yes, but at least they have the full cycle of daily services!

And if they did?

Very wise.

A Simple Sinner has spoken!

As long as it's in addition to, rather than in place of eastern observances, I don't see how there could be a problem. In our parish, the problem was a family that wanted rosary before liturgy, where it would have the result of displacing Matins.

(and when I say "in place of," I'm including those rituals not currently used that could be)

hawk

You are coming around.

My wife and I left St. Thomas last October when the current pastor began canvassing for congregational interest in switching to vesperal liturgies on Saturday evenings. He didn't do it right away, but began during Lent.

(We had many reasons for leaving, not just that one. The RDL wasn't one of them, however. Recently I was asked by a Byzantine cantor friend about changes in liturgies within the Orthodox Church. :)) I smiled at the question, because in the past 100 years the only significant changes for many have been the adoption of the modified Julian calendar, and changing from a church language to the vernacular- both of which do not tamper with the liturgy itself really, unless you focus on things like "deliver us from evil" versus "from the evil one", or debts and debtors versus trespasses. No inclusive language, either. There are some churches that no longer have the Ektenia for the Catechumens, but that's about it, and there is no groundswell to make any other changes as far as I know.)