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Actually an icon is a window, rather than a mirror. One does not sing "we magnify thee" to oneself!

Fr. Serge

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Originally Posted by May
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
... iconically mirrors ...


An interesting phrasing. It would seem to me that icons and mirrors are quite different. If marriage merely mirrors the relationship of Christ and the Church then marriage is changeable as our 'vision' of the relatioship between Chrsit and the Church changes. But if marriage is an icon of the relationship of Christ and the Church then marriage our vision is vision (understanding) is not important ... the reality of the relationship that is re-presented in the icon of marriage is what is vital.
The image does not change because the relationship that exists between Christ and the Church is an objective reality, and so it is not based upon any individual's opinion, but is a dogmatic truth revealed to the Church in Christ and made manifest in scripture and tradition.

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Actually an icon is a window, rather than a mirror. One does not sing "we magnify thee" to oneself!

Fr. Serge
I believe that an icon is both a window and a mirror, because we see the saints glorified in the image, while also seeing ourselves reflected in it as we will be in the eschaton, permeated with divine energy.

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Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Actually an icon is a window, rather than a mirror. One does not sing "we magnify thee" to oneself!

Fr. Serge

Thanks for the chuckle, Father Serge! smile

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I believe that an icon is both a window and a mirror, because we see the saints glorified in the image, while also seeing ourselves reflected in it as we will be in the eschaton, permeated with divine energy .


Beautifully said, my 'friend'! wink


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Hmmm

I think an icon is neither a window nor a mirror. One could say the same about any image, truthfully.

An icon is, properly, theology. There is nothing spiritual 'in' the wood/paper/mosaic tile. The message it delivers can reflect us or reveal things to us, but ultimately, an icon is a message.

And the message is Christ.

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Todd,

Are you saying that the Sacramental union of spouses creates a ontological miaphysis within the marriage?

Well, are you?

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
... and that this union does mark (or seal) the spouses, even though it is repeatable.

Who -- Church, theologian, etc. -- holds this view, specifically that marriage bestows a seal (sphragis) and is repeatable?

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
... it is true that husband and wife, i.e., head and body in marital union, through the mystery of crowning form one person ... a new ontological hypostatic reality through the union of the spouses...

Two persons become one person? "Unthinkable!" "Unheard-of!" Has anyone else (preferably orthodox) used person in this way, or does it spring forth anew here?

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I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this, but I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me with a marriage question.

We are Byzantine Catholics who have a daughter who is engaged to an Orthodox man. Unfortunately, her fiance is a convert from evangelicalism, and has a lot of anti-Catholic baggage. He has even questioned our daughter attending Divine Liturgy with us since we are "protestants" and it is a "protestant church." Under his influence, our daughter has been leaning towards the Orthodox Church, but was planning on getting the necessary permission from our bishop to marry her fiance in the Orthodox Church before possibly becoming Orthodox. She has now decided to become Orthodox before the wedding, and so we aren't sure what the ramifications of her decision will be on the validity of her marriage.

Obviously if she had waited to become Orthodox, received permission from the bishop, and had our priest present, there would have been no problems with the marriage. But if she is leaving the Catholic Church, joining the Orthodox Church, and getting married without the approval of her Catholic bishop, how will her marriage be viewed by the Catholic Church. I am sure it will be valid in the Orthodox Church, but as her parents and as Byzantine Catholics, it is important to us that her marriage is valid in the Catholic Church as well. My understanding is that in the case of a Catholic getting married in a protestant church without permission from the bishop, the marriage is not considered valid. However, the Orthodox Church has valid sacraments and can't be considered a protestant church, so how would the Catholic Church view this marriage? Is there anything in Canon Law that addresses this question? The difficult thing for us is that as much as we want to be supportive of our daughter, if the marriage is not considered valid in the Catholic Church, we can not in good conscience attend.

Thanks for any help in this matter.


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Dear Grace 7,
I am sure all of us here feel for you. Speaking as an Orthodox I am sorry the fiance is appearing to be so judgemental towards your family. I am sure others present will be able to provide you with more practical ifo than I can.
To start you off here is this joint Catholic-Orthodox statement:
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A Pastoral Statement on Orthodox/Roman Catholic Marriages - Joint Committee of Orthodox and Catholic Bishops, 1990
Introduction

A growing trust and a spirit of cooperation have developed between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church during the last twenty-five years, not only in the United States but also in other parts of the world. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, our Churches have been led to recognize more profoundly the need to manifest our unity in Christ and to pray for healing the wounds of centuries-old estrangement.

As bishops of these two churches, we hail this progress in mutual commitment to Church unity. We recognize that the Orthodox Church has expressed its seriousness in working for unity in the Church of Christ in this century through encyclicals and gestures of reconciliation. The Pan-Orthodox conferences held at Rhodes and preparations underway for convening a Great and Holy Synod are tangible signs of hope. We also recognize that the Roman Catholic Church, especially at the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), committed itself to the cause of Christian unity and recognized its close ties with the Orthodox Church. The creation of the Vatican Secretariat (now Pontifical Council) for Promoting Christian Unity is one sign of its dedication to restoring visible unity. Both our churches welcomed the establishment in 1975 of the official Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue. Notwithstanding the difficulties this commission has encountered and no doubt will continue to encounter, we rejoice in the work which it has already accomplished.

In the United States, under the sponsorship of the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA) and the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (NCCB), a fruitful series of theological consultations has been continuing since 1965. Twice each year members of the U.S. Orthodox/Roman Catholic Consultation meet to discuss common doctrinal and pastoral concerns of our two churches. Already this Consultation has met forty times and has published thirteen agreed statements on important religious concerns. It has also shared its work with the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue.

A Joint Committee of Orthodox and Roman Catholic Bishops was formed in the United States ln 1981 at the suggestion of His Eminence Archbishop Iakovos, Primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America, especially to address common pastoral concerns. Foremost among these concerns was the marriage between members of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

In this present statement, we, as members of this joint committee, wish to share a number of conclusions from our recent discussions and to propose recommendations that could be implemented in our churches in this country without delay.

To prepare for this statement we have reflected on earlier texts regarding Christian marriage produced by the U.S. Orthodox/ Roman Catholic Consultation: three agreed statements on (1) Mixed Marriages (May 20, 1970); (2) the Sanctity of Marriage (December 8, 1978); (3) the Spiritual Formation of Children of Marriages between Orthodox and Roman Catholics (October 11, 1980); and (4) a reaction to an agreement concluded in Boston between Cardinal Medeiros and Bishop Antimos (April 8, 1981) on ways of regularizing non-canonical marriages between an Orthodox and Roman Catholic spouse (May 29, 1982). Also submitted to us for comment was a document of the Metropolitan New York/New Jersey Orthodox-Roman Catholic Dialogue, an "Agreed Statement on Orthodox-Roman Catholics Marriages" (January 6, 1986). Our own Joint Committee provided a response to its practical suggestions on March 23, 1989. At our previous meetings in 1988 and 1989, we also consulted scholars of Sacred Scripture regarding New Testament perspectives on the indissolubility of marriage.

Meeting now from October 3 to 5, 1990, in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, we wish to make this joint statement about Christian marriage and to offer recommendations which, if implemented, could assist Roman Catholic and Orthodox couples to fulfill more responsibly the requirements of their churches regarding the marriage ceremony, married life in Christ, and the spiritual formation of children.

The Sacredness of Marriage

At a time when the sacredness of married life is seriously threatened by contrary views and "lifestyles", we wish to reaffirm our common faith in the profound reality of married life in Christ. We regard Christian marriage as a vocation from God in which the liberating effect of divine love, a gift of Holy Spirit, is experienced through human love. This human love expresses itself in permanent commitment to mutual fidelity and support in all aspects of life, spiritual as well as physical. It also expresses itself in the generation of new life, that is, in the procreation and nurturing of children on both the spiritual and physical levels. A primary responsibility of parents is the spiritual formation of their children, a task not limited to assuring church membership and providing for formal religious education but extending to all aspects of Christian living.

We regard Christian marriage as having a social dimension which extends beyond the partners and their relatives. Through marriage, husband and wife assume new roles in the church community. Consequently, just as marriage partners have a responsibility for the building up of the Church, so too the Church community has a responsibility to help each Christian family foster its life of faith. In particular the church community shares in the parents' responsibility for the spiritual formation of children.

The Sacramentality of Marriage

We share a common faith and conviction that, for Christians in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, marriage is a sacrament of Jesus Christ. We profess the presence of Christ in the Holy Spirit through the prayers and actions of our wedding liturgies. We express our belief that it is Christ who unites the spouses in a life of mutual love. Hence, in this holy union, both are seen as being called by Christ not only to live and work together, but also to share their Christian loves so that each spouse, under grace and with the aid of the other, may grow in holiness and Christian perfection. According to our shared belief, this relationship between husband and wife has been established and sanctified by the Lord. Marriage, as a sacred vocation, mirrors the union of Christ with the Church (Eph 5:23).

The Gospels record that Jesus affirmed the profound significance of marriage. Christian tradition, building upon the teaching of Jesus, continues to proclaim the sanctity of marriage. It is a fundamental relationship in which man and woman, by total sharing with each other, seek their own growth in holiness and that of their children, and show forth the presence of God's Kingdom. Having God's love poured in their hearts by the Holy Spirit, husband and wife exemplify and reflect in their lives together the mystery of love which unites the three persons of the Holy Trinity. Thus, marriage becomes a dynamic relationship which challenges the spouses to live according to the high standards of divine love.

In the teaching of our churches, a sacramental marriage requires both the mutual consent of the believing Christian partners and God's blessing imparted through the official ministry of the Church. At the present time, there are differences in the ways by which this ministry is exercised in order to fulfill the theological and canonical norms for marriage in our churches. The Orthodox Church, as a rule, accepts as sacramental only those marriages of Christians baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity which are sanctified in the Church's liturgy through the blessing of an Orthodox bishop or priest. The Catholic Church accepts as sacramental those marriages of Christians baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity which are witnessed by a Catholic bishop or priest (or, in more recent discipline, a deacon), but it also envisages some exceptional cases in which, whether by law or by dispensation, Catholics may enter into a sacramental marriage in the absence of a bishop, priest or deacon. There are also differences in our theological explanations of this diversity. As older presentations of sacramental theology indicate, Orthodox theologians often have insisted that the priest is the proper "minister of the Sacrament", whereas Roman Catholic theologians more often have spoken of the couple as "ministering the sacrament to each other".

We do not wish to underestimate the seriousness of these differences in practice and theological explanation. We consider their further study to be desirable. At the same time, we wish to emphasize our fundamental agreement. Both our churches have always agreed that ecclesial context is constitutive of the Christian sacrament of marriage. Within this fundamental agreement, history has shown various possibilities of realization so that no one particular form of expressing this ecclesial context may be considered absolutely normative in all circumstances for both churches. In our judgment, our present differences of practice and theology concerning the required ecclesial context for marriage pertain to the level of secondary theological reflection rather than to the level of dogma.

The Enduring Nature of Marriage

The common teaching of our churches follows Sacred Scripture in affirming the enduring nature of marriage. Already the Old Testament used marriage to describe the covenantal relationship between God and God's people (Hosea). The Epistle to the Ephesians saw marriage as the type of the relationship which exists between Christ and the Church (Eph 5:31-33). Jesus spoke of marriage as established "from the beginning of creation." He also taught: "And the two shall become one. So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder." (Mk 10:6,8-9; Mt 19:4-6).

A number of scholars of Sacred Scripture in our churches consider it likely that Jesus' teaching about the indissolubility of marriage may have already been interpreted and adjusted by New Testament writers, moved by the Holy Spirit, to respond to new circumstances and pastoral problems (cf. Mt 5:32 and 1 Cor 7:15). Hence they ask, if Matthew, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, could have been moved to add an exceptive phrase to Jesus' saying about divorce, or if Paul, similarly inspired, could have introduced an exception on his own authority, then would it be possible for those exercising authoritative pastoral decision-making in today's Church to explore the examination of exceptions?

Our churches have expressed their conviction concerning the enduring nature of Christian marriage in diverse ways. In the canonical discipline of the Orthodox Church, for example, perpetual monogamy is upheld as the norm of marriage, so that those entering upon a second or subsequent marriage are subject to penance even in the case of widows and widowers. In the Roman Catholic Church the enduring nature of marriage has been emphasized especially in the absolute prohibition of divorce.

Our churches have also responded in diverse ways to the tragedies which can beset marriage in our fallen world. The Orthodox Church, following Mt 19:9 ("whoever divorces his wife except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery"), permits divorce under certain circumstance, not only in the case of adultery but also of other serious assaults on the moral and spiritual foundation of marriage (secret abortion, endangering the life of the spouse, forcing the spouse to prostitution and similar abusive situations). Out of pastoral consideration and in order better to serve the spiritual needs of the faithful, the Orthodox Church tolerates remarriage of divorced persons under certain specific circumstances as it permits the remarriage of widows and widowers under certain specific circumstances. The Roman Catholic Church has responded in other ways to such difficult situations. In order to resolve the personal and pastoral issues of failed consummated marriages, it undertakes inquiries to establish whether there may have existed some initial defect in the marriage covenant which provides grounds for the Church to make a declaration of nullity, that is, a decision attesting that the marriage lacked validity. It also recognizes the possibility of dissolving sacramental non-consummated marriages through papal dispensation. While it true that the Roman Catholic Church does not grant dissolution of the bond of a consummated sacramental marriage, it remains a question among theologians whether this is founded on a prudential judgment or on the Church's perception that it lacks the power to dissolve such a bond.

Study of the history of our various traditions has led us to conclude that some at times may raise a particular theological explanation of relatively recent origin to the level of unchangeable doctrine. The Second Vatican Council's "Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World" stated that there was need for a renewal of the Roman Catholic Church's understanding and approach to its teaching on marriage. That council implicitly recognized that teaching on marriage had frequently proceeded from a biological and juridical point of view rather than from an interpersonal and existential one.

Spiritual Formation of Children

We also share a common conviction that in marriages in which one spouse is Catholic and the other is Orthodox both should take an active role in every aspect of their children's spiritual formation. Our priests are expected to counsel parents and children against indifference in religious matters. But since unity in Christ through the Holy Spirit is the ultimate goal of family life, all family members should be willing in a spirit of love, trust and freedom, to learn more about their Christian faith. They are expected to pray, study, discuss and seek unity in Christ and to express their commitment to this unity in all aspects of their lives.

In marriages in which our two churches are involved, decisions, including the initial one of the children's church membership, rest with both husband and wife. The decisions should take into account the good of the children, the strength of the religious convictions of the parents and other relatives, the demands of parents' consciences, the unity and stability of the family, and other specific contexts. In some cases, when it appears highly probable that only one of the partners will fulfill his or her responsibility, it seems desirable that children should be raised in that partner's church. In other cases, the children's spiritual formation may include a fuller participation in the life and traditions of both churches, respecting always each church's canonical order. In these cases, the decision regarding the children's church membership is more difficult to make. Yet we are convinced that it is possible to make this decision in good conscience because of the proximity of our churches' doctrine and practice which enables each, to a high degree, to see the other precisely as Church, as the locus for the communion of the faithful with God and with each other through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Recommendations

In the light of our discussion together, we submit to our churches the following recommendations which we judge will greatly contribute to promoting Christian charity and honesty in our two sister churches in regard to marriages between our faithful.

(1) We urge that SCOBA and the NCCB establish and sponsor a joint committee to prepare for publication our common teaching regarding Christian marriage, family life, and the spiritual formation of children. Such an ecumenical publication would be produced in common for the guidance of our clergy and the use of all involved in marriages between Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Such material would reflect the profound spirit of love and commitment to Christian unity that has marked our churches in recent times. Such a publication would indicate that our common faith leads to the recognition of the sacramentality of marriage in each other's church.

We recommend that, in this jointly prepared material, pastors and couples be offered up-to-date information about the recent and persistent efforts to foster a closer relationship between our two churches. It would encourage Orthodox-Catholic families to draw deeply from the spiritual wealth of both churches. It would urge them to safeguard the richness and integrity of each tradition by cautioning against attempts to absorb one partner into the other's Church.

We also recommend that this material include sensitive and accurate presentation of the present canonical discipline of our churches with regard to marriage in order to aid pastors in counseling couples in a responsible manner, especially if there has been a previous marriage.
(2) We recommend that when an Orthodox and Catholic marry there be only one liturgical ceremony in which either one or both priests are present, with the rite being that of the officiating priest. The guest priest, normally dressed in cassock, would be invited to greet the bride and groom and to offer a prayer toward the end of the ceremony. We recommend that such marriages be recorded in the registries of both churches.

We recommend that in the case of marriages celebrated in the past, if it should be decided that some supplementary liturgical action is needed for a member to be readmitted to full eucharistic communion in one's church, care should be taken that this liturgical celebration avoid the impression of being another marriage ceremony thereby implying that what had already taken place was not a marriage.

We earnestly submit these recommendations to the NCCB and SCOBA for adoption and rapid implementation by our churches.

While recognizing the integrity of the canonical and pastoral practices and procedures in both our churches which seek to provide for the faithful whose marriages have failed, we also note the major differences which exist between our practices and procedures. We therefore would also encourage further serious and specific study by canonists and others in a common effort to understand and, in so far as possible, resolve these differences of practice and procedure to move toward a commonly accepted declaration of freedom to marry. Our own Joint Committee, with the assistance of the U.S. Orthodox/Roman Catholic Consultation, and of specialists in canon law, church history, and sacramental theology, hopes to pursue this ongoing task.

We realize that this undertaking, as well as the many others that lie before us, is of such magnitude that it cannot be accomplished easily or quickly. Yet, relying on the Holy Spirit, we are confident that it can be achieved, given the spirit of trust and cooperation which exists in our churches and which we have experienced in our own deliberations.

October 5, 1990
Johnstown, PA
9th Meeting
http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic-bishops/orthodox-catholic-marriages.html

Just speaking from similar situations of mixed marriages between Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox of my friends, all the marriages except one have been in the Orthodox Church. The Ukrainian Catholic priests were not allowed to take part in the ceremony although they can be present in the church. Often the Catholic priests are asked to chant grace at the reception and also to speak.
About 2 years ago a male friend from my parish married a Ukrainian-Catholic girl and the wedding was in her parish. Although our parish priest was invited to take part in the wedding ceremony, it is against the rules of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for him to do so and he refused. Our priest did attend the reception with his wife and chanted the grace before the meal and the Ukrainian Catholic priest gave the blessing at the end of the meal. In this case the groom before the marriage agreed to be married in the Ukrainian Cathic church and to have all children baptised Ukrainian Catholic. He however is remaining Ukrainian Orthodox and I beleive no pressure was put on him to leave our church. For the sake of the two families it is fortunate, this was decided before the marriage.

This is how things work in my church (our priests do not participate in the services/sacraments of other churches) and I will let others tell their tales and offer advice.
I sincerely hope something can be worked out and there is not be a major disruption in your family life.

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Originally Posted by Grace7
We are Byzantine Catholics who have a daughter who is engaged to an Orthodox man. Unfortunately, her fiance is a convert from evangelicalism, and has a lot of anti-Catholic baggage. He has even questioned our daughter attending Divine Liturgy with us since we are "protestants" and it is a "protestant church." Under his influence, our daughter has been leaning ...

Dear Grace,

I don't know if I can offer advice, but I am very worried about your daughter. I will pray for her.

I think she may have fallen in love with a deep seated control freak kind of guy. Someone who really knows very little about Christianity, and talks about it constantly. crazy

You say this "man" came from an Evangelical church background and is calling your Catholic family "Protestant"? Whatever evangelical tradition he was part of, I have never found one who confused Catholics and Protestants this way.

I've found Orthodox Church members who don't like or respect Catholics, but none ever called us Protestants (some of them might think we aren't as good as Protestants, though).

This fellow sounds almost like an Islamic fanatic is his application of some kind of "Orthodox Sharia Law" against your family.

I will pray for your daughter, that she finds wise counsel from a spiritual Father in the Orthodox Church, someone who will help build up a family, rather than tear it apart.

Please remember --- our Creed says that we believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Our Eastern Catholic Churches live this every day. Many have suffered and died for this. The Catholic Churches basically consider the Orthodox to be our sisters. There is only one Church --- the divisions are caused by the accumulated sins of twenty centuries.

I will pray for your daughter.

And I will pray that there is some Christian love of neighbor in that Orthodox Church she is being pulled into, that would build up a family, rather than tear it apart.


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Quote
I don't know if I can offer advice, but I am very worried about your daughter. I will pray for her.

I think she may have fallen in love with a deep seated control freak kind of guy. Someone who really knows very little about Christianity, and talks about it constantly.

You say this "man" came from an Evangelical church background and is calling your Catholic family "Protestant"? Whatever evangelical tradition he was part of, I have never found one who confused Catholics and Protestants this way.

I've found Orthodox Church members who don't like or respect Catholics, but none ever called us Protestants (some of them might think we aren't as good as Protestants, though).

This fellow sounds almost like an Islamic fanatic is his application of some kind of "Orthodox Sharia Law" against your family.
Good for you Two Lungs for having the wisdom and spiritual discernment to see this so clearly. I think you have found the root of the problem. If this is part of the young man's charcter, the intened bride may encounter more serious problems and maybe even abuse after the marriage. I can see why her parents are rightly concerned about the turn of events.

From my limited experience of reading Orthodox discussions groups, I have unfortunately read some very extreme fanatical an what I consider non-Orthodox views bordering on cult behaviour of former Evangelical Protestants in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. Not to say all converts are like this. I say this as an Orthodox discussing my own bretheran.

Seeing how my own parish priest behaves in preparing mixed- couples for marriage, I would hope that the groom's priest treats the bride and her family with love and respect for their religious traditions. Maybe a meetig with both families and both priests could help the situation.
Let's all pray for the two families involved.

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Originally Posted by Halia12
Seeing how my own parish priest behaves in preparing mixed- couples for marriage, I would hope that the groom's priest treats the bride and her family with love and respect for their religious traditions. Maybe a meetig with both families and both priests could help the situation.
Let's all pray for the two families involved.


Dear Halia12,

Thank you for your kindness.

I hope their Priest does thorough interviews with the bride and groom and asks the families to come in to talk also. Some Priests are very good at it, others seem to rush through. I hope their Priest works on it.

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I'm sorry that guy is such an idiot.

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Almost all Orthodox Priests from the West Coast whom I have met would not have received that guy into Orthodoxy with that rabid anti-Catholic attitude.

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