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A number of self-proclaimed 'gnostics' have set up church. Has any group tried establishing a Byzantine version of a gnostic church? I heard about a monastery that used to be in Nebraska that practiced a form of gnosticism-Hinduism. Any others?

Ed

http://asia.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gnostic_Orthodox_Church/

Lord, have mercy.

Thank you, Father David Straut.

Of all places - Jakarta, Indonesia!

Ed

Another one. This one in NYC and Northern New Jersey - my neck of the woods!

http://www.alexandriangnostic.org/

Lord, have mercy. (3 times)

Fr David

It gets worse....

http://www.alexandriangnostic.org/bishopmikhail.html

+Mar Mikhail Francis Itkin
(Saint Mikhael of California)
(1936 - 1989)
Feast Day, May 6th



Coming Soon! from AGC Press
Now Back in Print:

The Radical Jesus & Gay Consciousness: Notes for a Theology of Gay Liberation
by Bishop Mikhail Itkin

"The whole of reality, God included, is evolving and the entire course of its history has been a process of Incarnation, because a new kind of coincidence or Identity is being reached. That true Identity is the Christ indwelling all creation and being born new in manifestation as we become Conscious of the Creative Life-Truth-Spirit." - Bishop Mikhail Itkin , from the introduction to the 2nd Edition

Lord, have mercy. (12 times)

Fr David

Lord have mercy 40x!!!!!

Byzantine? Bunch of Latinizers!!!!

OOPS

Looks like a whole new bunch of folk for Neil's book of oddities

These folks are relatively new on the vagante landscape, but they follow in the footsteps of some well-known characters.

As I recollect, Mikhail Itkin had his initial episcopal consecration (I believe some others followed sub conditione), from Christopher Maria Stanley, a one-removed ordinand of Peter Zurawetsky and Joseph Klimovicz.

Itkin breathed life into several vagante ecclesia, among them the Free Catholic Church, the Primitive Catholic Church, the Evangelical Catholic Communion, as well as laying hands on all manner of would-be hierarchs who, today, head up such bodies as the Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., the American Orthodox Church, the Moorish Orthodox Church (also in Father David's backyard), and others. Itkin was heavily involved in "Gay Catholic" and "Gay Orthodox" movements in both the US and UK.

Itkin and others involved with various of the bodies with which he's associated also had ties with various iterations of the Liberal Catholic Church. The intertwined lines involving all of those named above are so labyrinthine that it would take a decade to map them out. Although neither Itkin nor Stanley ever achieved the prominence of Aftimios Ofiesh, Arnold Harris Mathew, Joseph Rene Vilatte, Carmel Henry Carfora, Prince Rudolph Francis Edward de Landis Berghes, Gerardus Gul, or some of the others among the legendary ancestral hierarchy of these movements, they have managed to be prominently represented in episcopal genealogies of the genre.

Just to note, not all of the Churches named above are "Gay" oriented, nor were most of the clerics whom I referenced. Additionally, neither the Primitive or Evangelical Catholic Churches of Itkin's creation should be confused with present-day ecclesia of similar names which, albeit of the so-called "independent movement" are significantly more mainstream and theologically sound than were his.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks, Neil.

Is there an "official" listing of all these vagante churches.

Elizabeth,

There is no such animal as an "official" listing, unless some gnome in the bowels of the Vatican or the Phanar is keeping one. Even the various "communions" among the genre couldn't hope to maintain a comprehensive one, as the animosity among them means that loyalties shift continuously, as each strives for recognition as the "most" "c"atholic or most "o"rthodox or whatever. Besides which, they span a continuum from ecclesia that really are Churches, promote theologies which we would recognize as near akin to our own, are headed by clerics who believe that they are appropriately serving God but that they cannot for some reason do so in the mainstream, and provide true pastoral care to their faithful to those that are nothing more than an excuse to play ecclesiastical dress-up in a garage or family room. For the former, I have the utmost respect and I know several such well through correspondence and on-line communication. As to the latter, they never cease to fascinate me, at the same time concerning me with the thought that there are folks who will follow them, blindly.

There are myriad listings on line but none that could be termed complete, the names change more often than New England weather. I have links somewhere to the most prominent sites which list them - those of Al Green, an Orthodox layman, and Terry Boyle, a Catholic layman - each of whom tends to concentrate on the vagante offshoots of their own particular Churches. However, the cross-over is such that both miss a lot of them and I can't say that either Al or Terry has updated lately. Father Tony Begonja, an "independent Anglican", has a site at which he lists a significant number of "independents" - it's particularly interesting in that it includes pics of many of the players.

Other lists appear on the sites of various of the ecclesia themselves, as they recite their respective histories and list their episcopal genealogies. I've written extensive posts about individual Churches and hierarchs in the genre, here, at OC.net, at CAF, and elsewhere in response to specific queries. "Bishops at Large" by Peter Anson, of blessed memory, was - in its time - the definitive work; a much smaller, but equally interesting, work was drafted by Bishop Karl Pruter, recently of blessed memory, himself an "independent" bishop, a very interesting individual, and someone whom I believe was genuinely spiritually motivated.

I'll pull up the links to Al, Terry, and Tony's sites tonight, if I don't get to them sooner.

Many years,

Neil

Interesting. I suspect that there are people who essentially have become Hindus or Buddhists in their beliefs, but they are still identifying with the exterior things and label of Christianity.

It's one thing, for example, for Hindus to be Hindu and recongize Jesus as an avatar; or for Buddhists to be Buddhist and to recognize Jesus as a kind of Buddha (bodhisattva). But it is another things for a group to pretend that it is still Christian when, in reality, it is not.

They will have to make a choice --either monism or monotheism-- because these hybrids don't work.

-- John

Father David:

Father bless!!


This quote from the first website you listed sounds so much like the New Age stuff I've been served in the past six years. I've always marveled at the absolute arrogance of maintaining that one could "attain" to a knowledge of God on one's own. It almost seems to imitate the idea that if we don't believe in Him, then God doesn't exist. It's all about the "me."

We have a "right" vis-a-vis our Creator. I take a line from the medieval Dies Irae (from the Tridentine Mass for the Day of Burial)--"I am in fear and trembling at the Judgment and the Wrath that is to come."

Asking for your blessing and continued holy prayers.

BOB

Didn't most of the Gnostics/ Cathars/ Patarenes/ Bogomils/ Paulicians/ Albigensians/ Manich�ans/ Arians (a.k.a. the followers of "the heresy that never dies") in the east convert to Islam since it was more in-line with their beliefs than Christianity? I know this was certainly true of the Albanian Bogomils at least. Might there be a reason that this is in a Muslim country?

Also associated with the "Gnostic Orthodox Church" is a company you may be aware of: Monastery Icons. Here's some information on them [forums.catholic.com]. The head of this "church" got its ordination from St. Hilarion Old Catholic Monastery in Austin, Texas, although the ordained publicly proclaimed he did not need to undergo this sacrament because he had been a bishop in a previous life.

Here's the site on independent "catholics" mentioned above: ind-movement.org [ind-movement.org]. There is a continuum among them, but the chaotic nature of the movement has attracted a host of criminal, heretical, and unstable elements into its ranks.

Unfortunately, in the last 20 years many of these players have decided "Old Catholic" is no longer as exotic (or profitable) a modifier as "Orthodox," so many now pretend to be us. E.g., one "Western Rite Orthodox" bishop (not to mention his wife) was arrested for trying to extort money from a (legitimate) Roman Catholic priest [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]. To name another instance, St. Hilarion Monastery mentioned above later joined an "orthodox" church and produced its own "Old Sarum Rite" missal.

Al Green (not THAT Al Green [en.wikipedia.org]) has a website dedicated to these groups [ggreen.net], which is pretty comprehensive.

There may be some nice people in vagante organizations, but they usually get upset at the deception involved in joining and humbly submit themselves to a canonical church. Those who remain vagantes, try to get Orthodox to join their churches, and wage war against "the ecumenists" (every legitimate Orthodox Church) are worth avoiding at all costs.

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]