www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Mission-oriented vs Ethnic Churches

Amen... Hell, even some Byzantine-Rite Antiochian parishes up in the US are non-Arabs. Amen, Jonn!

C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY !, I'm sorry; PRAISE THE LORD !

So John,

Because of a loud bully you are telling me true Eastern Witness is all talk. No cute crafts reinforcing the feasts or special baked goods celebrating a commemoration. Southern Easterners are Protestants in Byzantine vestments following the rituals in the books then? Is there no celebration to take home to share with the family and friends? Do you wear green only on March 17? On Easter there is no special food to send to Uncle Bill who doesn't go to any church but you still want him to know Christ is risen? Get real.

Michal,

My thoughts extactly!

S'Bohom!

Ung

Well, if you're moving back to the Pittsburgh area, you might be in luck to find a parish that serves BOTH ends.

I've found that St. Nicholas (ACROD) in Homestead preserves many of the ethnic traditions, yet is a growing parish as well. Many are Chrismated each year by Father Robert Buczak and become very active in the parish -- for example, the choir, which is considered by some to be the finest in the diocese, has 2 new members this year, both recent converts, both Irish.

I like this model myself. We preserve many of the ethnic traditions (the Irish guys like pyrohy and halupki even!) but the Liturgy is always in English unless the bishop is visiting (then a lot of Slavonic is used).

OK, I'm one of the Irish guys... and to tell the truth, I'm half Irish, and half kind of Polish and Rusyn, but I didn't grow up with the Rusyn traditions or Slavonic, and I feel OK with it.

Amen, brother!

In my parish, it it Americanism, but not JESUS.

We are falling apart as Russian immigrants come in and want one hymn in Russian (only one hymn), but the parish council which is run by Moose Club rules will not accommodate them, but bullies our priest into silence.

I like the pan-Orthodox parishes where the Nicene Creed is recited in English and in Arabic one Sunday, then English and Greek the second Sunday, then English and Slavonic the third Sunday, followed by English and Romanian the fourth Sunday, with the fifth Sunday being whatever is spiritually necessary to minister to those who come from afar. In this way, we are exposed to the beauty of God's gift to humanity: our many languages.

Pray for our parish. We might lose all our parish properties within this year. Since the wealthy parishioners will not tithe to support our parish, and we are operating with a $500 deficit every Sunday, it does seem like the parish council is going to sell our church. Furthermore, the wealthy parishioners have given loans with high interest rates and now want their investment back. Sadly, these people do not care if a protestant church buys our consecrated building, which was built in the Russian style. What is wrong with this picture? The middle class parishioners and the poor who truly give sacrificially are suffering. We now have to find another church.

I try to be as American as I can possibly be, but frankly I prefer the ethnic church, because it is steeped in tradition and custom. I spend alot of my time at a UGCC Church, and if it ever decided to begin eliminating it's Ukrainian character, I honestly believe most of the parishoners would leave, and so would I.

Their are so many fallen away, and twice a year Eastern Catholics out there, that I'm thoroughly convinced that getting these people back into the fold is the answer to survival in 21st century America.

Is the difference between mission and ethnic language? If so how will that effect the RCs and the new old Latin mass?

at my UGCC parish, almost all attend the Ukrainian Sunday Liturgy, and only a handful for the English. this is consistant every Sunday

At the UGCC parish I attend, I'd say we get more than twice as many people at the Ukrainian Liturgy, and even though I don't understand Ukrainian, I seldom attend the English one, because it's too early, and the singing and atmosphere just isn't the same.

C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY !

The UGCC down the street is popular amongst the new immigrants at their English Liturgy, and the Slavonic / Ukrainian Liturgy is popular with the 1st and 2nd wave descendants. The parish I attend numbers are declining but it is not due to language but time abuse both scheduling and longevity.

A Parish should be both Ethnic and Mission Oriented. (Duh!)

We need to be welcoming but not ashamed of who we are and how we live and express the Faith. Who wants to join a Church that is ashamed of what it is?


Orthodox enthnicities are inseperable from the Faith. The way we express ourselves in Liturgical Language, Prayer (different jurisdictions have different Rubrics, devotions, etc.)the style of Iconography, and especially the foods we eat and WHEN we eat those foods all express the Love of Jesus Christ and the Grace we wish to descend into our hearts.

Creating "Mission" Churches that Rebel against the beautiful, unifying Liturgical Languages, downplay the ethnic foods, etc. creates an atmosphere that is counterproductive to Orthodox spirituality. Much of the essence is lost. We don't have to speak Church Slavonic or Arabic around the kitchen table or anything like that (though it would be pretty cool ) We are part of the Church to become Christ like, we are not part of the Church to be "not Greek,""not Arabic," or "not Ukranian."

Many people particularly from Greece consider a particular ethnicity to be a synonym for Orthodox and even consider conversion to be a change of ethnicity in many ways (from American to Greek or Russian, our worldview is changed.) There is no common American Ethnicity that expresses Orthodoxy . We have a Russian Old Rite, a Nikonian Rite, a Ruthenian Recension, etc. to my knowledge there is no American Recension. We have various fasting foods, various feasting foods, some have pussy willows some have palms (some use both), different Saints feastdays, different Kolyva recipes, etc. etc.

How can anyone deny an ethnicity that has maintained Orthodoxy for one or two thousand years?

My priest is fond of quoting that it is easier for someone to become a Christian than to cross ethnic, cultural or linguistic lines.

(That being said, if you worship in English, speak English exclusively in Coffee Hour, and if your parishioners are no different than their neighbors, then you don't have an ethnic parish, no matter how many pirohi sales you have a year.)

Dave

I find all these comments interesting,constructive and worthy of consideration. It shows that there isn't any single solution; the Holy Spirit will suggest the solution(s)for each parish.

Here in my location in traditional Western Pennsylvania I have seen various migrations withing the three Roman Catholic Churches. Formerly they were Polish, Lithuanian, and Irish/Italian/everyone else. Those ethnic orientations are disappearing. The migration is now determined by the liberal vs traditional preferences of the pastor. The more liberal (formerly the largest) parish has lost people to the traditional (now the largest.)

Three conclusions I have reached are: 1) the ethnic attachment is disappearing and 2) people go where they are spiritually fed and 3) people don't "belong" to a particular parish, but "float" according to their priorities.

Businesses have realized that they can't just open the doors and expect people to come and keep coming. In this consumerist nation this has crossed over to churches; we have to do everything "right" to spiritually and even socially fill their expectations; unless you happen to be the only church in town. Our "small store" churches have to respond to the "Wal-Marts."

**Of course this has to be done without compromising our faith.**

Fr. Deacon Paul

What makes these dreaded ethnic churches, linguistic? Is it culinary? Cultural? Or is this the excuse not the problem, the problem being controlling individuals?

The parish I usually attend has 120 years of experimenting under its belt. Yes the scripture readings are repeated in liturgical AND vernacular languages as agreed upon by our apostle Saint Methodius and Pope John VIII in 873. The choir sings the Liturgy in Slavonic for which the compositions were orchestrated. Seasonal services and movable parts are often according to the preference of the crowd who responds. If there are more new immigrants but the English responses are being sung, guess which gets preference but if its balanced it is balanced. Foods is not so much what as how. Easter is precooked and cold, Christmas Eve is vegetarian and Theophany Eve is vegan. At a covered dish dinner you bring what you want within the parameters of how. If the parishioners do not think a particular dish is appropriate they will simply shun it. What is the other complaint? Style. If someone offers to paint the men�s room which has pealing walls, why should you care if it is done in yellow or blue? If so and so is donating a new hand cross why would you care if she chooses a one barred or three barred as long as it�s not of colonial style. Of course when the bishop come the choir will learn Greek and the children will greet him in Ukrainian with bread and salt dressed in Lemko or Boyko folk dress even though his sir name is Moskal and the only Ukrainian the kids normally use is pascha, pyrohy and pysanky. Or would you prefer giving a key by those dressed in billboard t-shirts, blue jeans, sneakers while speaking slang? What is unfortunate is when newcomers come and decide even if it is not broke they will brake it leaving others to fix it.