Whew! I just had the worst nightmare! The nightmare started with being at Divine Liturgy. Everything was fine until the end of Liturgy when a few of us noticed our red books were being collected and replaced with these green ones. There was no warning whatsoever. The following week we were to start using the new green books. A quick glance at the new book, you could easily see something was missing! The words in church Slavonic- GONE! How could this be? Ours is the Slavonic Rite!!! IF THAT WASN’T ENOUGH – the nightmare continued! Week after week, it all began to unravel and continued to beat upon what we had known as our Divine Liturgy. Beautiful hymns once chanted were replaced with awkward melodies and words that are foreign. What use to be a blend of people chanting while priests praying in lower chanting, has now been reduced to priest RECITING prayers (just like you’d find in a Roman Catholic or Protestant church) while people sit in silence (or rather fidgeting and talking amongst themselves) AND IF THAT WASN’T ENOUGH – the wording!! THAT ALONE was awful. MANY changes there. AND WHY? TO FIT INTO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. Examples included eliminating ANY reference to mankind, changes from sons to children… Not just in the hymns, but the Epistle readings, and the Gospel and the sermons. In the Slavonic rite we have a reference to the Mother of God – Bohorodicu, yet in this nightmare, it was changed to the Greek word Theotokos. There was even a noticeable decrease in the use of incense. For those souls who noticed and were truly hurt and utterly lost, in response to any questions, the reaction was “deal with it” “this is better translation” “this is getting back to what is ours” “ any and all concerns were dismissed and turned around like somehow WE have a problem and are the ones at fault. When further probing from the people hurt came and it was clear we would never agree with such explanations, obedience was thrown at us. In real life, a church always would have their spiritual leaders lead in such times. But, the nightmare continued, many of the priests and even a bishop was found to be converts and therefore not interested in preserving what was ours.
This particular nightmare seems as though I would never wake up from it and it went on for what seemed like a whole year. By thankfully, I woke up and look forward to next Sunday when I know all will be well. Whew!

In general, I sympathize with the previous post. But on the specific matter of "Theotokos", I must agree with the compilers of the RDL - "Bohoroditsa" does not mean "Mother of God"; it means "Theotokos." Pope John Paul II realized the importance of this word and went out of his way many times to stress it and use it.

If you can cope with "transubstantiation",you can certainly cope with "Theotokos".

Fr. Serge

Bohoroditsa translates (and obviously does not transliterate) Theotokos, but what does it mean?

Dn. Anthony

Hello from Florida
From what I remember from Seminary, "Theotokos" or "Bohorodice" means "God Bearer" -- I wish I could shed more light on the root words -- Theos (God) tokos -- from ??
We sing "Bohorodice Divo -- Oh Godbearer, virgin..."
Andy Kovaly

C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY !

“…For those souls who noticed and were truly hurt and utterly lost, in response to any questions, the reaction was “deal with it” “this is better translation” “this is getting back to what is ours” “ any and all concerns were dismissed and turned around like somehow WE have a problem and are the ones at fault. When further probing from the people hurt came and it was clear we would never agree with such explanations, obedience was thrown at us. In real life, a church always would have their spiritual leaders lead in such times. But, the nightmare continued,…” quote of true faith

The nightmare is contagious. Ruthenians and Ukrainians have a common plague, their new parish despots. While we are told to imitate Christ they imitate Pharisees, pristine outside rotten within. No preparatory explanatory groundwork, just iron fisted change. They again assume the role of intellectuals looking on their faithful as dumb peasants who are only wanted to pray, pay and obey. We come to bury our mothers and find the holy mother church doesn’t comfort the living, and use the dead to show who is in control. Our children come for crowning and leave feeling a J P (justice of the peace) will be more in tune with their needs. Joyful singing of dear melodies and languages are replaced for a chanted dialog between two soloists. Why is one 3 hour Sunday Liturgy serving 30 people more orthodox than two tandem 90 minute Liturgies which use to serve 300?

They tell us the Pontiff wants us to recapture our original ways, but he never said when that was. The first millennium? During the migration of refugees from Roman persecution and Byzantine heresies? The bi-ritual mission of Ss. Cyril and Methodius? The policy of governmental privilege for church maintained civil obedience? The patriarchal death grip prolonging adequated chauvinism? Protection seekers uniting the unlikely? Nicon Helenization? Peter I westernization? Catherine II reformation? Mohila counterreformation? Muscovite sister church persecution? Catholic proselytizing? Augustinian erroneous predestination? Authrosyphoras Orthodoxy? Sheptytsky’s line of demarcation? Slipyj’s call to order? When the people of the Ukrainian catholic churches of the orthodox faith amalgamating their celebration of the Millennium of Rus’ Christendom despite clergy enmity, causing world wide recognition of the persecuted Catacomb Church? Today’s arrogant revival of orthodoxy?

On his birthday (March 10) let us recall our bard Taras Shevchenko’s muse, for us to study others in order to learn to think. In his epic poem HERETIC he hailed the “Holy Czech, Great Martyr, Glorious (Saint) Hus! I pray that all Slavs become as heretical as this Great Heretic…”. Would they ask today ”WWJD?” (What would Jesus Do?)

Is our cross to have foreign ideals of orthodoxy shoved down the thoughts of our people until there are no cradle faithful left breathing with two lounges? Is there enough Moslem entrepreneurs to buy our temples to turn them into middle eastern restaurants? How else but real-estate sales can these new boys playing priest support themselves without any real world job skills?

Such a tantrum and nothing said makes any sense!

If Bohorodice is a correct translation of Theotokos it would not mean God-bearer but Birthgiver of God. The "tokos" in Theotokos comes from tiktein, to give childbirth, and is related to the noun teknon, child.

What is the name and location of this parish?

Ung

"Mother of God" has served the English usage of the Old Rite parish of Erie quite well. While the Old Rite prayerbook published by the wonderful parish of the Nativity does not completely avoid the use of Theotokos, far and away the translation of "Bohoroditsa" is usually "Mother of God" in the Erie prayerbook and the other Old Rite liturgical works published by Nativity.

I daresay Hieromonk German and Fathers Pimen and Theodore are definitely three of the most competent readers of Slavonic I have encountered in my life.
FDRLB

They certainly are. Three of their liturgical books are in front of me on my work table. But we may note, along with Diak, that they do find it necessary to use "Theotokos" part of the time, and they have not explained how they decide when to use it and when not to use it.

Meanwhile, this is a dogmatic term (cf. Council of Chalcedon) and John Paul II went to considerable trouble to restore it to the common Catholic vocabulary. Once again, "Theotokos" and "Mother of God" are not synonyms, even though they both refer to the same person.

Fr. Serge

Very well said. It seems our Slav fore-bearers more often preferred to translate than transliterate. And in the rendering of even some important terms in certain instances, they recast them for Slav sensibilities. The rendering of orthodoxōn as pravoslavnich is another example.

The RDL question ( link ) then is, what should be our primary source for translating our liturgy, the Greek usage, or our Recension which is transmitted to us in Slavonic?

When I hear Bohorodice I hear God-birther and thus, Birthgiver of God. And that conveys meanings in English that, though still a theological-mystery, immediately can be processed further by the English speaker where Theotokos cannot.

Theotokos was not transmitted to us through the Slavonic. Though it is original, and venerable and unassailable, we have a precedent in the Slavonic rendering that points us, properly I would say, to Birthgiver of God as the proper and perhaps even best translation.

Some previous discussions on this topic are link , link and link .

Dn. Anthony

I believe that the ACROD uses Birth-Giver rather than Theotokos in their books.

Ung

The OCA Romanian translation uses "Birthgiver."

Wow! I had a similar nightmare but when I woke up, all was good for me. I was in the Holy Orthodox Church!

I find this kind of triumphalistic post very disturbing to me. All Churches struggle. The OCA right now is struggling tremendously with charges of corruption, etc. at the higest levels. Yet no one is writing emails rejoicing at the fact that they are Byzantine Catholic. Why is it tolerated when someone does the opposite. NO wonder my young students are turned off by Christianity and by Christians.

Can we PLEASE not rejoice at the struggles of our fellow brothers and sisters? PLEASE -- I appeal to you by all that is good and holy in the Gospel to refrain from this kind of vicious attacks.

You did not have a dream about the RDL then. As I have pointed out MANY times, the RDL does contain references to "men" and "man" as inclusive nouns.

I really find this kind of exaggeration to be distasteful. Disagree if you want to -- but refrain from exagerrating the faults. I have much more respect for arguments that acknowledge the good while criticizing the bad. But arguments that are exclusively negative and ones that make exaggerated claims are distasteful and untruthful.

We use both depending on the text.

" Birth-Giver of God" was coined by Isabel Hapgood, if memory serves me correctly. Alas, it does not accurately translate "Theotokos" either. But Hapgood has been strongly influential for more than a century.

"Bohoroditse" is simply a Church-Slavonic calque of "Theotokos".

Fr. Serge

Oh please. Everyone here knows I have great respect for the Latin/Eastern Catholic Church. True, I am very happy in the Holy Orthodox Church, but it is not meant to disparage any other Church. The OP was tongue and cheek. My contribution was in that vein. I know that you and I agree on very little when it comes to the RDL, but there is no need to bash my post and then start listing problems that the OCA are experiencing---now THAT is insulting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a viscious attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you want to begin a thread that criticizes and bashes the OCA, then you have free-will. This forum deals specificly with the RDL----AND MANY HERE HAVE BEEN TERRIBLY INJURED BY IT.

Forgive me, as I can see that you were offended by my post. The problems the OCA is having are well-known; yet there has been no post by any Greek Catholic rejoicing in the fact that their communion has been untouched by these problems. That is a significant fact.

I believe your post was terribly uncharitable. I was offended by it.

An additional point behind my raising this issue is to demonstrate that some of the claims made by supporters of the RDL about the nature of the personal attacks against them and the RDL are not unfounded.

There is a personal edge, an angry tone, to some of the posts that are objectionable. I am hopeful that they will completely stop.

Agreed. But we have Bohoroditse. My question is, what does it convey?

Theo --- tokos
God ---- child-bearer (as explained in a previous post)

Boho----roditse
God ---- ?????

What then for the ????

Dn. Anthony

I converted to Holy Orthodoxy for a myriad of reasons—mostly doctrinal. However, the travesty of the RDL was the straw that broke the camel’s back. It was the springboard for my conversion. Week after week I sat in the pew with my wife and child at the Ruthenian Catholic Church in a cloud of disbelief. I could no longer sing. I could not bring myself to recite the neutralized language. I could not even say the Creed any longer!!! It was impossible for me to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

So you see Fr John, the RDL was a true and living nightmare for me. I am at peace once again in the Holy Orthodox Church. There is no triumphalism. There is no insult to you. You are at peace where you are—and I am at peace where I am.

The anger and defensiveness of your posts are becoming tedious for me. You are approaching Holy Week and I have just begun Great Lent, so I am going to leave this forum for a while. My conversations with you are not conducive to retaining my peace. I will pray for you and your family.


May the remainder of your Lent be blessed.


The most wretched of all sinners,
Recluse

Amen! Although I too have had occasion to clash with individuals that have voiced strong opinions against the RDL, I wish to join Recluse in wishing all Eastern Christians a Blessed Holy Week or beginning of their Lenten Journey (whichever event they are celebrating). I think we can all take a moment to pause and reflect upon those ideas which bring anger into our hearts, and how we may cleanse those feelings in order to more fully take part in our worship of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection for our salvation.

Hello Deacon Tony,

I believe the translation for Boho-rodice that you are looking for is God-birther.

A student

Thank you "student"; I agree: A+.

If you wish to get angry at the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, as well as Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI on the issue, I certainly can't stop you from disagreeing with me. In January of this year Pope Benedict said in the general audience in the Paul VI Hall:

"Theotokos" is the title officially attributed to Mary in the fifth century, exactly by the Council of Ephesus in 431, but affirmed in the devotion of the Christian people already since the third century.

The earliest known usage is the prayer "Under thy patronage" - Sub tuum praesidium" or in Slavonic "Pod Tvoiu Milost'" (I have the Greek text but it's not handy to the computer). It may go back to the second century.

Why does this word disturb people?

Fr. Serge

Good question. I don't get it either.

I love the word -- but I just wish we could all say it the same way. People around here have a tendency to say "Theee-a-tokus".

Who are the you, Nestorius and Dioscorus?

Yes, this illustrates my observation very nicely, that Theotokos is NOT transliterated in the other (Latin and Slavonic) languages.

Greek: Θεοτόκε

Latin: Sancta Dei Genitrix

Slavonic: богородице дѣво

Sub tuum praesidium


Dn. Anthony

Quote: I love the word -- but I just wish we could all say it the same way. People around here have a tendency to say "Theee-a-tokus".

I think it should be pronounced similarly to Theologian. This is the first and preferred pronunciation in the New Webster's Collegiate.

Theotokos is generally pronounced in Greek with a short epsilon: "Theh-oh-TOE-kos." (NOT Thay-o-to-kos) There is a long list of words which have come into English from Greek, that have a short epsilon (the "eh" sound), which becomes elongated in English. I've already mentioned theologian; others include evangelize and evangelism. Even the pronoun me is pronounced meh in Greek but mee in English.

So, if we're serious about adopting Theotokos into our great English language, I think we should abandon the affectation of saying "thay-o-tokos."

To-may-to, to-mah-to, po-tay-to, po-tah-to. In a country as large as ours, there will always be regional variances.

Where I live, it's Thee-o-lo-gi-an so Thee-o-to-kus would be correct. The Russian Orthodox who introduced me to the word says Thay-o-to-kus.

I learned how to serve in Greek - in Greece, of all places. Might I suggest that those who would like to know how Theotokos is correctly pronounced in liturgical Greek should simply visit the local Greek Orthodox parish and listen carefully? Alternatively, one can purchase nice recordings of Greek Orthodox liturgical chant from ZOE (main shop is in Athens; at least some of their recordings are surely available from Brookline).

Fr. Serge

Theota-kus (Say "Iota" and "Cuss"... Then change the "I" in "Iota" to "Thee"...) is my personal favorite regional variation...

At least that is how one elderly Roman I knew - a convert with a syruppy thick souther accent pronounced it when telling me she loved reading "Those Greek Catholic prayers to the Theota-kus."