As for us, you have three things going on with the RDL, translations people don't like, music people don't like and rubrics/omissions that do not conform to the 64 Liturgikon or Ordo Celebrationis. I think those writing letters will win the appeal to allow the 64 Liturgikon to be used. (and some places are still using it anyways) I do not think they will be successful in getting the 07 Liturgikon rescended. So ultimately pastors will be left with the decision based on parish reaction to the RDL and their own tastes.

Christ is Risen!

During the Great Fast we used the old books for Presanctified. During Holy Week we used the Levkulic books. It was like home week. People who stopped coming because of the RDL were back...

Keep writing letters! Not to the bishops - they don't care and will not answer. Rome does care and will respond. The travesty of the Ruined Divine Liturgy needs to be ended.

Keep writing letters!

Your letters are working and have caused Rome to sit up and take notice of the Pittsburgh Revised Divine Liturgy. There are lots of rumors. The bishops have no plans to make public the new directives from Rome so no one knows for sure. Two of the bishops did state in public that Father Petras and the liturgical commission are revising the Revised Divine Liturgy and that they would be meeting in July. Archbishop Basil also said that he didn�t get involved in the details of the revision because Father Petras and J. Michael Thompson are the experts and Bishop Pataki strongly supported them.

If you have not written any letters yet, write one themtoday!

Send a letter of support for the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy to Archbishop Basil and each of the other three bishops.

Send a letter of support for the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy to Cardinal Sandri at the Oriental Congregation in Rome. Complain about being denied access to the official Divine Liturgy.

If you write and keep writing the Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy can be saved!

Keep writing letters!

Your letters are working and have caused Rome to sit up and take notice of the Pittsburgh Revised Divine Liturgy. There are lots of rumors. The bishops have no plans to make public the new directives from Rome so no one knows for sure. Two of the bishops did state in public that Father Petras and the liturgical commission are revising the Revised Divine Liturgy and that they would be meeting in July. Archbishop Basil also said that he didn�t get involved in the details of the revision because Father Petras and J. Michael Thompson are the experts and Bishop Pataki strongly supported them.

Keep writing letters!

Your letters are working and have caused Rome to sit up and take notice of the Pittsburgh Revised Divine Liturgy. There are lots of rumors. The bishops have no plans to make public the new directives from Rome so no one knows for sure. Two of the bishops did state in public that Father Petras and the liturgical commission are revising the Revised Divine Liturgy and that they would be meeting in July. Archbishop Basil also said that he didn�t get involved in the details of the revision because Father Petras and J. Michael Thompson are the experts and Bishop Pataki strongly supported them.

If you have not written any letters yet, write one themtoday!

Send a letter of support for the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy to Archbishop Basil and each of the other three bishops.

Send a letter of support for the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy to Cardinal Sandri at the Oriental Congregation in Rome. Complain about being denied access to the official Divine Liturgy.

If you write and keep writing the Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy can be saved!

Keep writing letters!

Keep the discussion on topic and with facts that can be verified, not hear-say.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Very wise. I don't want to be too optimistic. How often have you seen a bishop back down, or admit that he was wrong?

Nick

Can anyone recommend a parish within 10 miles of Pittsburgh that has a really good Divine Liturgy? Not a RDL but a real Divine Liturgy. Everything. Nothing skipped. Good singing a must. Choirs ok but not necessary.

Is 10 miles the limit you will travel for "a really good Divine Liturgy?" Within 50 miles there are several parishes still using the Blue Books and/or old music. Can't promised nothing skipped and good singing is in the ear of the listener. I don't know of too many parishes with choirs either.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I am willing to drive a half hour each way on a regular basis. Byzantine Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, or Orthodox. I don't expect any Byzantine Catholic Church to have a decent liturgy.

Wow a whole half-hour! Unfortunately, I don't think any Byzantine Catholic Church will meet your expectations.

What super parishes with nothing skipped and good music were you attending before the RDL?

Here's an OCA parish in the south side of Pittsburgh.

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-WP-PITHAC

I can guarantee that you will hear a full Liturgy without inclusive language there. Also Vespers on Saturday night.

EM - I trust that was said in jest

Why is it unreasonable to expect to find one Byzantine Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, or Orthodox parish within a half hour of Pittsburgh that celebrates the whole liturgy and has good singing?
Can you give me a list of parishes that still take the Byzantine Liturgy? Maybe we can go to one of them once a month. We need to support them.

Even before the RDL, it was impossible to find a Byzantine Catholic parish that did not omit verses of the antiphons, Little Litanies, Litanies of the Catechumens and Faithful, and at least one of the Litanies of Supplication in the Archeparchy, St George in Aliquippa during Fr. Elias' tenure being the exception. So why is the RDL now the straw that broke the camel's back?

PB,



Even before the RDL, it was impossible to find a Byzantine Catholic parish that did not omit verses of the antiphons, Little Litanies, Litanies of the Catechumens and Faithful, and at least one of the Litanies of Supplication in the Archeparchy, St George in Aliquippa during Fr. Elias' tenure being the exception. So why is the RDL now the straw that broke the camel's back? If your criteria is a complete Red Book Liturgy with the old music then I am afraid you will be disappointed. If a Blue Book Liturgy with the old music is acceptable you have many options, you just need to look around and be willing to drive an hour maybe. I don't have a list but it is fact some parishes didn't even purchase the new books.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This statement boggles my mind. In the almost two years since I've been Orthodox, I am used to, and expect nothing less than the full Liturgy I get every Sunday.

Why was Aliquippa and the handful of other parishes who took the "Red Book" allowed to be the exception? Personal preference of the priest? Give me a break! How can one parish be so Eastern, and the next one be so watered down?

I'm getting a headache. If I didn't have family still in the BCC, I wouldn't even be typing right now.

Dobre Notc.

There is no such word as "Latichnik" - and if there were, it would have something to do with brass!

Fr. Serge

Maybe "Latinik or Latin'ak"?

Ung

Wow a whole half-hour! Unfortunately, I don't think any Byzantine Catholic Church will meet your expectations. What super parishes with nothing skipped and good music were you attending before the RDL?

Brat' Etnick,

Please clean out your PM mailbox, I have a message to send to you!

Ung

I think that's what I was going for.

Here's an OCA parish in the south side of Pittsburgh.

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-WP-PITHAC

I can guarantee that you will hear a full Liturgy without inclusive language there. Also Vespers on Saturday night.

Слава Ісусу Христу!

SAINT JOHN the forerunner and mother church of Pgh & S W PA
412-431-2531 http://stjohnspittsburgh.com/
Saturday 5 PM Vesper Liturgy recited English
SUNDAYS 8:30 Matins when announced
9:30 (9:40) AM DIVINE LITURGY a capella
Choir (1891), 4 part compositions as written by masters
Congregational harmony encouraged/expected
Occasional congregational chant lead by the cantor
Church Slavonic 30% (Ukrainian usage); choir composition, hymns
English 35% and Ukrainian 35% languages; priest’s prayers and meditations, litanies (ektenyas), scripture and movable parts (Gregorian calendar)
Stephen Zinski chanter, cantor and choir director
Approximate time 1:50 (25 sermon, 5 announcements).

St. John Ukrainian Greco Catholic Church (Checks payable “St. John”)
Parking on 7th street and parking lot off Carson Street across from church
(initiated 1888 at St. Adelbert’s RC for 900th anniversary of Rus’ Christendom and UNA/Narodni Souez co-operative,
PA incorporation 1891, building 1895, 1917 ongoing)
MAPQUEST: http://www.mapquest.com/
109 South Seventh Street, Pittsburgh, PA. 15203-1028
COMMON USAGE:
“Seventh at Carson Southside Pittsburgh”

Visual exterior:
http://stjohnspittsburgh.com/landscape2.jpg

Fr. Elias's church was not the exception, there were probably five or six others who were fortunate enough to experience a fuller Divine Liturgy. Why is it an issue now? Maybe because it appears that it will remain a reality, and the RDL still feels foreign after an entire year.

This Sunday at choir practice a discussion ensued regarding the RDL. I can tell you that this wound is still as fresh as it was last June. People likened it to "our Vatican II."

It's just so sad to watch your church be ripped apart at the seams, and you have absolutely no control over it.

I visited a church in the Archeparchy's jurisdiction and it was not a full Divine Liturgy like I experience in the Cleveland-area. The only ones who lost are the churches who were doing a fuller Divine Liturgy -- everyone else has kept what they had, and only added the word smithing. The Liturgy police need to take a road trip to see what's really going on -- I guarantee they'll be surprised -- it's not what's printed in those turquoise books.

While I agree that the RDL needs work, the Orthodox liturgies aren't the ideal answers some here make out.

I have spent the summer on pilgrimage, going to different parishes as the Spirit directed. Over the months I have been to OCA, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Ukrainian (Orthodox and Catholic), etc. The purpose was not liturgical, but for the teachings. I started at Orthodox Pentecost, and will finish up at the end of this month.

Orthodox liturgies are anything but standard. Some do the Beatitudes, others do not. Some have a full procession incensing the church, others simply incense from the Iconostasis. Most have choirs, some just trained cantors, in almost every Orthodox church the people sat mute. Only at one Ukrainian Orthodox church did the people sing.

I was appalled at two churches in particular, one Greek the other OCA, where the people had a total lack of understanding of where they were. In the Greek church there were people in the nave talking and laughing as the Gospel was being read; those in the church proper were simply talking, only a handful were paying attention to the reading. The teaching was done at the end of Divine Liturgy, and featured a prominent monk from the Antiocian Village, sadly less than half of the people remained to listen, the other half walked out on him. Had I been the priest I would have been embarrassed to invite this distinguished person.

At the OCA church the back half of the church seemed more to be in a concert than at Divine Liturgy. They whispered among each other, walked in and out of the church constantly. The teaching was exceptional, and well worth the trip, sadly a full third of the people did not show up until it was almost over. The choir was grand, but not a single mouth opened among the people; well, not in song.

Yes, our liturgy isn't perfect, but it wasn't back when we had the blue books either. If you use the Orthodox church as the standard for perfection, the blue books fell far short. The new books are closer on some parts, further on others. Personally, I think the degenderfication, choir-like music, and the prayer endings (I do prefer "unto ages of ages") are mistakes.

It should have been rolled out to a few churches as a test study, then reworked as the comments came back. But, if you are leaving because of the changes then I question why you were here to start with. The purpose of the church is not to be a social club - that is Roman, not Eastern - it is for teaching and communion (both the sacrament and the fellowship).

The Eastern Divine Liturgy has been changing continuously over the centuries. At one time it took up almost an entire day - would you stay that long? I doubt it, I hear people complain when the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is done during the Great Fast (NOT Lent).

I have a prayer book from my grandmother, circa 1890, it bears little resemblance to the blue book. Prayers were longer, the filioque did not exist, the Beatitudes were a standard part, there are prayers in her book which are missing entirely from the blue book. According to her, Divine Liturgy was 90 minutes, not including the teaching, 2 hours during the Great Fast.

By all means, write your letters. But do so in a spirit of fellowship, not in anger.

While I agree that the RDL needs work, the Orthodox liturgies aren't the ideal answers some here make out.

The purpose of the church is not to be a social club - that is Roman, not Eastern - it is for teaching and communion (both the sacrament and the fellowship).

Nobody is arguing that the Orthodox have the perfect Liturgy or the most well behaved and devout parishioners. What is being dicussed is the non-organic mandate of gender-neutralized politically correct Liturgy revision in the Ruthenian Catholic Church.

Keep writing letters!!!

If this comment about the Roman Church is as I understand it, that is, an implication that Roman Churches are a social club, I am personally and highly insulted. As a deacon of the Latin Church, I can honestly not think of of any parishes in my diocese that have a social club atmosphere or social club standards, and I have visited, in one way or another, most of these parishes.

Please be careful when, and if you did, cast such aspersions.

And if I am jumping to an unintended conclusion, please accept my apologies.

Dcn. Jonathan

The attempt here was to remove some of the Latinizations, and create a more Byzantine liturgy.

Criticize them, but do so with agape not oxos.

The letter I sent to Rome, (before my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy), was very civil and to the point.

I am pleased that you are happy in your new church. I am fascinated that the people who complain about the gender-neutralization of the Byzantine Liturgy find comfort in the church that gender-neutralized the Bible.

The new Divine Liturgy isn't perfect, but neither is it heretical, I cannot say the same about the OSB.

According to Canon 657.2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, the authority that approves the translation of texts for liturgical use in those Eastern Churches that have patriarchs or major archbishops is the principal authority of each respective Church. All that he is required to do is to send a report to the Holy See.

Therefore it is possible (but not certain) that the translations of the Byzantine liturgy that reportedly upset some members of the faithful were actually never revised in Rome at all.

You should be careful quoting your canons:

Canon 657
.
.
.
3. To republish liturgical books or their translations intended
even in part for liturgical use, it is required and suffices to
establish their correspondence with the approved edition by an
attestation of the hierarch referred to in can. 662, 1. In
making changes in liturgical texts, attention is to be paid to can. 40, 1.

Canon 40

1. Hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris and all other hierarchs are to see most carefully to the faithful protection and accurate observance of their own rite, and not admit changes in it except by reason of its organic progress, keeping in mind, however, mutual goodwill and the unity of Christians.

2. Other clerics and members of institutes of consecrated life are bound to observe their own rite faithfully and daily to acquire a greater understanding and a more perfect practice of it.

3.Other Christian faithful are also to foster an understanding and appreciation of their own rite, and are held to observe it everywhere unless something is excused by the law.

The 65 Liturgicon does not publish this letter. It simply states:
Publication made upon the confirmation of the Sacred Oriental Congregation Prot. N. 380/62 December 10, 1964

The 06 Liturgicon states:
This revision was approved by the Council of Hierarchs and submitted to the Apostolic See for approval, in accordance with canon 657. The Apostolic See granted this approval under protocol number 99/2001, dated 31 March, 20001.

For those so concerned with a copy of the approval/recognitio letter why not simply write Rome and ask for it since they issued it?

Just seems a little silly for lm to quote a passage that actually undermines his position.

Canon 657 is objective and verifiable. Canon 40 1. is subjective.

Canon 657 is objective and verifiable. Canon 40 1. is subjective. Who decides what changes meet the criteria of organic process? One must assume that Rome judges that to be our hierarchs.

From the Code of Canons of Oriental Churches:
Canon 40 §1. Hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris and all other hierarchs are to see most carefully to the faithful protection and accurate observance of their own rite, and not admit changes in it except by reason of its organic progress, keeping in mind, however, mutual goodwill and the unity of Christians.

18. Liturgical reform and renewal
The first requirement of every Eastern liturgical renewal, as is also the case for liturgical reform in the West, is that of rediscovering full fidelity to their own liturgical traditions, benefiting from their riches and eliminating that which has altered their authenticity. Such heedfulness is not subordinate to but precedes so-called updating.

21. The ecumenical value of the common liturgical heritage
Among the important missions entrusted especially to the Eastern Catholic Churches, <Orientalium Ecclesiarum> (n. 24) and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (can. 903), as well as the Ecumenical Directory (n. 39), underscore the need to promote union with the Eastern Churches that are not yet in full communion with the See of Peter, indicating the conditions: religious fidelity to the ancient traditions of the Eastern Churches, better knowledge of one another, and collaboration and fraternal respect of persons and things. These are important principles for the orientation of the ecclesiastical life of every single Eastern Catholic community and are of eminent value in the celebrations of divine worship, because it is precisely thus that the Eastern Catholic and the Orthodox Churches have more integrally maintained the same heritage.

In every effort of liturgical renewal, therefore, the practice of the Orthodox brethren should be taken into account, knowing it, respecting it and distancing from it as little as possible so as not to increase the existing separation, but rather intensifying efforts in view of eventual adaptations, maturing and working together. Thus will be manifested the unity that already subsists in daily receiving the same spiritual nourishment from practicing the same common heritage.

25. Competencies for the approval of the translations of liturgical books
The multiplication of eparchies or churches <sui iuris> of the same liturgical families that use the same language, sometimes within the same territory, normally requires that standard translations be used. The competent authorities should agree among themselves to obtain this uniformity.