Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voistinnu Voskrese! (Indeed He is Risen!)

Just curious. I attended at least two Pre-Sanctified Liturgies leading up to Holy Week and noticed that only once was Church Slavonic used. The Deacon actually threw it in for me at the end since he knows I love Church Slavonic and often sing quietly to myself in Slavonic during DL. I don't want to disturb anyone else, but I feel more comfortable singing the hymns in Slavonic.

My family attended Friday night services with me. No Slavonic.

My family attended Resurrection services with me. When we were outside the doors of the church, the priest tried "Christos Voskrese..." and the response was less than enthusiastic. About three people besides me, the priest and the Deacon. And the three that tried were rather anemic. After that it was all in English. Please, I am not blaming the priest in any way for using English the rest of the service. He does a wonderful job and tries very hard to maintain tradition. Our Liturgies are quite wonderful, with as much of the Liturgy as there should be. He has a very hard job with two regular parishes, a mission and a student mission at our local University. So four "parishes" is a lot of traveling for one man.

My nine year old, who has attended one Byzantine liturgy before, picked up the English "Christ is Risen..." very quickly and sang quite lustily after that whenever it came up during the service. I sang quietly to myself in Slavonic most of the time.

He asked me after why I didn't sing "Christ is Risen..." loudly, as he and everyone else was. I explained that I was singing, just in a different language and didn't want to disturb anyone else. He inquired what I was singing and I sang it to him in Slavonic. He picked it up quite quickly, even though the vowel and consonant combinations were quite new to him. He now has been going around the house singing "Christos Voskrese..." by himself, and if I start, he joins in with lots of engergy. There's a lot of smiling going on in my house between my son and I these days.

My question is: how much Slavonic was done in any of the services in your church or mission? I'm curious. And if my nine year old can pick up on Church Slavonic without much of a problem, why can't adults pick up on it also? It's not that hard, especially a short prayer such as "Christos Voskrese...." Just break it down to a few small phrases and within a matter of minutes, just about anyone can sing it without being embarassed. And the traditional greeting as well.

Is anyone aware of an effort to teach Slavonic to the younger (or even middle aged) members of the BCC? The attitude I keep getting (NOT from my priest) is that "why make people learn something new when we are having trouble filling the pews now?" Maybe standing out from the crowd will attract more attention (and therefore more potential members) than trying to conform and give Byzantines just one more reason to attend a RC, rather than a Byzantine church?

My son is now rather fired up about the Byzantine Liturgy and plans on attended more Liturgies with me in the future. Including this Saturday/Sunday coming up in my home church in my home town. He can't wait. It seemed to spark him in some way. Maybe because it was so different from what he was used to? Maybe standing out from the crowd is a good thing, when trying to attract new or even former members? Just an observation/question. I do not claim to know all the answers.

(My family has been attending a Lutheran church for several years since there was no Byzantine Mission in the town in which we live. Now we have a Mission and I attend as much as my health permits, which is not much. So this was certainly a new experience for my son. But he was completely in awe of the service that he witnessed--the procession Friday night to the tomb, the procession Saturday around the outside of the church, the group singing and chanting without any musical instruments, etc. And talking about keeping Vigil outside the tomb--he really wants to do that. Of course, he wants to do the 3am hour! He was profoundly moved. He said it was just so different from what he was used to and he liked it so much better than the Lutheran service. And I couldn't be happier.)

So, how much Slavonic was used in your church this past Holy Week?

Tim

Tim,

At Presanctified we always sing "Having suffered the passion for us..." in Slavonic the second of the three times.

At Great Friday Vespers "The Noble Joseph" was alternated in English and Slavonic.

At Resurrection Matins and throughout the Paschal season when the Paschal troparion is sung, my priest sings it in Slavonic then we respond once in Slavonic and again in English, very loudly and very well. My priest also sang all the Irmosi in Slavonic and alternated the Pachal Verses in English and Slavonic.

At Liturgies the Cherubic Hymn is alternated in English and Slavonic and before Liturgy, after Liturgy and during Communion at least a couple Slavonic hymns are sung.

Fr. Deacon Lance

X. B.

Sundays we attend one parish down town, weekdays we go to a local up the street and for Julian observance there is the Orthodox parish down the street all for quite a mix. Wednesday evening up street ANOINTING all English, HAVING SUFFERED 1st time priest & 2nd time people as written Ukrainian 1st part and Slavonic 2nd part, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Friday evening up street BURIAL all English NOBLE JOSEPH at entombment and at end 1st time priest in Slavonic, 2nd time people in Slavonic, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Saturday morning up street JERUSALEM MATINS priest started each segment in Ukrainian then went into English, people all English end NOBLE JOSEPH as before. Paschal food BLESSING followed all prayers English repeated in Ukrainian no X. B. singing. My kids went to afternoon BLESSING same as before, my brother went to evening VESPERS with LITURGY everything English X. B. Slavonic & one cantor English solo, Paschal food BLESSING repeated English & Ukrainian X. B. Slavonic. We went down town Sunday morning for MATINS 40% Ukrainian 60% English. All X. B. troparions and exclamations priests in Ukrainian people in Slavonic priest & cantor did one English solo. People sang Slavonic stikheron VOSKRES ESUS OT HROBA, ANHEL & SVEETISIA. PLOTTU priest 1st then People 2nd in Slavonic, all 3rd in English. DIVINE LITURGY choir 4 part music as written in Slavonic, EKTENIYA & “silent” read MEDITATIONS 50/50 Ukrainian & English, ALLELUIA Ukrainian, APOSTLE repeated Ukrainian & English, GOSPEL repeated Greek, Ukrainian & English, St. John & pastor’s HOMILY English, HYMNS people chant Ukrainian. As far as I know the Pascal food BLESSING after was attended only by pastor’s family presumably Ukrainian. Monday evening up street VESPERS with DIVINE LITURGY. All X. B. troparions and exclamations in Slavonic, cantor did one English solo, along with ANHEL & SVEETISIA English solo, but YELITSE all in Slavonic regular LITURGY and HOMILY English. Orthodox Pascha down street I expect a 25% Ukrainian 75% English no Slavonic. In our home for dinners all X. B. Slavonic include E NUM.

PS Cantor English solo is because no one joined in. Local protest that the language chosen was not to their liking, because they know this one in Slavonic phonetically. Don't anoint them assuming they don't know the seasonal Slavonic "password", they will answer you in Slavonic and withhold their tip when they reach your basket.

WOW!!! http://www.brioschi-usa.com/

X. B.

Etnick,

No thank you, no need for it.

I dunno...Sounds like heartburn city!

X. B.

Etnick,

Why? The cantor had everything prepared in booklets. Being in a hub of universities, colleges and international trade why should we be an English ghetto community?

I'm not saying it should be an English ghetto. It's just that that post you made a few up is alot to digest. It's mind boggling!

X. B.

That is why when the priest ask for prayers for vocations, I pray for cantor's. He or she is often from the parish and knows the needs and likes of the people better than most pastors.

My experience, in a different parish, mirrors that of Fr. Deacon Lance with the exception of the Cherubic Hymn which is always in English.

We had more Spanish than Slavonic at the Sunday Matins/Vesper combo on Pascha. The Paschal troparion alternating with English at the start of Matins, Anhel/Svititsja (at the 9th ode at Matins only, during the Liturgy it was in English), and Jelicy during the Liturgy were the only Slavonic. The little litanies between the odes were alternated in English and Spanish (with responses only in English. Various of the previously slient prayers of the priest were done in Spanish as well. The gospel was read in the English and Spanish.

X. B.

Don't you miss the good old days when we stood for the chanting of the Gospel in 12 languages; Greek, Latin. Aramaic, Slavonic, Ukrainian, English and a half dozen others. Oh by the way that was only a verse in each not all of John I.

Here in Virginia, anything that is sung multiple times (the Noble Joseph, Christ is Risen, Your Resurrection, etc.) alternates between English and Slavonic until it's time to go to the next element in the service. It's nice and the people don't miss a beat going from one to the other. And it's been that way for the 30+ years that I've been a member of the parish. The newer (generally RC folks) don't sing as lustilly as the hunkies (May God preserve them for many years!!) but it generally works. We just need to have the cantors position themselves at the four corners outside the church so that we aren't hearing multiple music during the processions -- some at the doors, some with the clergy, etc.!!

We still have - thank God! - a significant number of Carpatho's in the parish so that the Slavonic is used 'naturally' and not just as a 'condiment' to the liturgical celebration.

I rejoice in the fact that our small church building was actually constructed by the people themselves - under the guidance of an architect/construction manager. So when we have the services and the processions and I look at our church building, I am reminded that this is not just some "edifice", but rather the handiwork of some of the people who are in procession with me. And I stand in awe of their incredible generosity and devotion. And the Slavonic is just part of the whole picture of the people who founded and (literally!) built this Church. And I am humbled and grateful for them and their efforts.

Christ is Risen! Blessings to All!

Dr John

I know that having liturgy in "the vernacular" is a venerable tradition in the Eastern Church. But can someone answer me this: if the Second Vatican Council encouraged the Eastern Catholic Churches to make their liturgies "purer" (for lack of a better word) shouldn't the UGCC be using Church Slavonic since that is what the Eastern Orthodox in Ukraine and Russia use?

If you go to the Rusyn Radio Program link on the C-RS website,
you can download the 1 hour Pascha Sunday special from March 23rd, '08. There are some nice audio files of the late Bishop John Bilock singing in Church Slavonic during the Paschal Matins and Paschal Divine Liturgy, and the blessing of the Paschal Foods. I believe it is from 1973.

www.c-rs.org/RadioPgm/

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung

Boy do I miss the late Bishop John Bilock's singing. He loved to sing, especially in the Church Slavonic language! He really sang with his whole heart! May his memory be eternal, Christos Voskres!

Ung

You're not kidding! I'm listening to it right now. Bishop Bilock had a fantastic booming voice. I had chills listening to him sing Christos Voskrese. Vichnaja Pamjat!

I have nothing whatever against Church-Slavonic, which I am actually able to read and understand (unlike quite a few would-be "stalwarts" whom I've met and who have never even learned to read the alphabet), and which certainly has its uses.

But neither in Ukraine nor in Russia is Church-Slavonic in exclusive possession where Eastern Orthodox liturgical practice is concerned. In both countries the Church is faced with an enormous missionary challenge, which is not best met by insisting on the exclusive use of a language that almost no one in post-Soviet society can understand.

Moreover, there is no particular reason of "liturgical purity" to expect one Local Church to insist upon linguistic conformity to another Local Church. If you want Church-Slavonic, please learn that language yourself (if you have already done so, accept my congratulations), organize some like-minded people, and enjoy it. But one must attract people, not attempt to dragoon them.

Fr. Serge

This is the whole reason we play Bishop Bilock on the Rusyn Heritage Program Easter program.

Many people requested to hear it because they do not hear any Church Slavonic today, especially with the implementation of the RDL. I am not talking about the older generation either, I mean the younger generation wanted to hear it (by younger I mean my generation, the "Generation X-ers").

The donations we received for our special Easter show came with requests specifically to hear Church Slavonic with Rusyn plainchant.

We will be doing the same thing on Orthodox Easter. We have some old audio files from St. Nicholas in Homestead from Easter Matins.

Rusyn31,

Thanks for the Paschal programs!

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung

Looking forward to the Orthodox Pascha radio show. Keep up the good work! Slavonic must be preserved, even if it means old audio files on a radio program.

How much Slavonic was used during Resurrection Services?

None, because we didn't celebrate Pascha yet. :-)

Ray

I can already state that judging from last years Pascha, this year it will only be used when the Tropar is sung.

I know I'm just Roman Catholic, but given our own experience with the near-total practical abolition of Latin in the Roman Rite from 1970 to 2007 and its devastating effects, I can't help but wonder why so many of our Eastern Christian brethren seem indifferent to the fate of their traditional liturgical languages.

Nobody is saying that the Eastern Churches must exclusively stick to Church Slavonic, Koine Greek, etc. The Eastern Churches have a beautiful heritage of celebrating the liturgy in the vernacular and this is something from which the West has learned (too much, perhaps). However, does the celebration of the liturgy in the vernacular entail having to disregard and cast the traditional liturgical languages into oblivion? Is that really necessary? Does it have to be an "either-or" proposition? Will the lex orandi of the Eastern expression of Catholicism stand completely undamaged from the total transition to the vernacular? Just asking.

It is my understanding that even some Russian monasteries kept Greek as a liturgical language until the early 20th century.

Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voistinnu Voskrese! (Indeed He is Risen!)

Thanks for the responses. It was heartwarming to hear so many people using Slavonic or Ukraninian. The songs just sound better in Slavonic for some reason. More "right." I know it's a personal thing. Nostalgia if you want to call it that. But It just feel better when singing "Christos Voskrese..."

God bless and keep you all

Tim

X. B!
C. I. X!

#199

Presentation is (almost) everything. Slavonic isn't more magical but it is mystical. In the Exapostilarion Hymn of Light the XVI century Ukrainian melody was written for the Slavonic "Plotty". Modern Ukrainian does not fit the sailing musical movement and a common tone looses the integrity. English does fit better but there is too much thought to digest for the music to be inspirational, if you have a well trained singer. Voice is the only musical instrument made by God but it takes a well developed diaphragm, not visually but audibly.

I did hear it sung proficiently in English once. The American born grumbled, the priest saw the error of his ways never to do it again and today he has a crown to wear. That pregnant pause just before the soloist start is magical. You can feel it, the anticipation rush is mystical. Will he hit the first and especially the second high? If he doesn’t your turn follows, our old Rusyn lesson in humility… first soloist, second choir, third time beginning by soloist, completion by you. If it goes well you swell with the experience that Christ is risen and all is right in the world. If not there is always pascha bread and pysanky eggs.

I lean more towards magical.

I went to the dedication of a new church once. It was raining so bad, I was waiting for Noah to float by. We were standing in old parish hall waiting to process over to the new church. The Bishop was there and all the priests were vested and ready to go. It still poured buckets.

Finally, the pastor enough, lets go for it. The cantor started singing ANHEL BOZI VOSVISTILTJA, O MARIJE, MARIJE.....

Well, the rain stopped, the skies parted and the sun started shining with the most GOREGOUS rainbow I've every seen...

Talk about magical....

The reason they are indifferent is I think complicated to answer.
I would submit that the main reason is that eastern Churches translations into other languages are not tinged with the sort of heretical humanism of teillard de chardin that the Latin/vernacular Mass of Paul VI (novus ordo) is. They are simply better translations than have been produced of the latin liturgies. If you desire to see fine translations of the Latin Liturgy into english I encourage you to read "Beneventanum Troporum Corpus I; Tropes of the Proper of the Mass from Southern Italy, A.D. 1000-1250" (you'll thank me later, they are so close to eastern liturgies translations of today). Another reason is that the liturgical language in the east are not seem as a unifying force to unite a church all over a large continent or world as it was in the latin church (for example many 19th c latin priests sent to colonies would enjoy having conversations in latin because they could not understand each others native tongues). A third reason is that there is less of a perception of desiring to continue a certain legacy and holy grail of keeping alive the "holy roman empire" or something like charlemangne "pax romana" or heritage which many westerners seem to find unforgettable. Some of Fr John Romanides ideas may enlighten you there (although be aware he is considered to be anti-latin church in it's post schism form)
Fourth reason is that the nationalism of the 19th century which continues to the present around the world, such as in the Austro-Hungarian Empire or former Yugoslavia encourages national languages to be used. Those are some of the ideas I know of.
This is a great question worth studying by everyone which i myself must learn more of in the future.

Ideally at the very least there should be projects started to archive liturgies said in all liturgical languages which are threatened with extinction of living usage.



I did not know this, I am surprised if this is true but not shocked. Greek was it seems the earliest universal language in all churches with Aramaic/Syriac possibly sharing this status.
The Coptic Church has used greek in some liturgies done today as well, such as the Liturgy of St Cyril (St Mark). I really don't have strong opinions on the useage of liturgical languages.

The only strong opinion I have is that poor translations are dangerous and threaten the Church. One can find amazingly close to perfect translations in many languages. A few understandings may occasionally be lost but new understandings will also be gained. We should struggle to do excellent translations more than we should strive to preserve ancient liturgical language.
Perhaps a better idea is a balance of both. Keep the original liturgical language until a equal translations exists, than it is up to bishops and laity to decide.

Yikes! I am very distressed to hear that the maintenance of the liturgical language is a value in itself, regardless of its effect upon the worshippers.

The Church is living baptized people. There is, certainly personal prayer - which I presume people accomplish in their native heart-inspired language while crying out to God.

There is also public prayer - both liturgical and non-liturgical. The point of "public" prayer is for the community to worship God and to both praise and petition God in light of our needs. To do so in a non-understandable tongue seems to defeat the purpose of prayer and worship. Maintaining a classical form of liturgy for fear of deviating from the 'accepted' form of salvation would appear to deny the efficacy of the Holy Spirit.

The Latin church used Greek in the Kyrie Eleison to have a public acknowledgement of the position of the Greek speaking church in the evolution of the Christian community. (I think it's still a good idea - and not just because I'm of Greek heritage.) Analogously, some use of Latin in all Christian liturgy to acknowledge the contribution of the Latin people(s) and tongue to the development of the Church (both Eastern and Western) would be a wonderful commitment.

But to insist on these non-living languages as the total expression of the faith is not going to serve the evangelization needs of a Church committed to the Gospel of "go out and get 'em!". We'll just end up as an eccelesiastical "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" with incantations and magical words. [Let it be noted that I love the Harry Potter series; I chuckle a lot when they do their "spells", since it's usually just basic Latin -- but it sounds 'mysterious' and powerful!!]

Enter Dumbledore: "Exite perfidos omnes!!"

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Today was Slavonic Sunday at my parish. I belted out the Otce Nas like usual. Also Budi Imja Hospodne. I'm committing more to memory and will continue to do so. I don't see Slavonic dying out at my parish anytime soon, so this has been a good learning experience.

Wow, I wish I could attend such a liturgy in the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America", but no such luck.

Ung

Ung,

You're welcome at my parish. Slavonic liturgy is on the second and fourth Sundays.

Christos Posredi Nas!

Good one! It's past Bright Week for us "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantines", so Christos Voskrese isn't appropriate, and my Orthodox brethren are still in the Great Fast!

Ung

Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voinstinu Voskrese!) (Indeed, He is Risen!)

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. In no way do I want to maintain a Church Slavonic only Liturgy. I just don't see why on some occasions, especially special occasions such as Easter, we can't show some respect for our heritage and the sacrifices of our ancestors and sing some of the hymns in Church Slavonic. I do not think using only Church Slavonic is a good idea. It certainly won't evangelize anyone, as you rightly pointed out. That is not my intent. But I think to turn our backs on the sacrifices made by our ancestors who literally saved nickels and pennies while working like dogs in order to establish a church--well, that's just not right. Rusyn or Church Slavonic or any other type language may well be a "dead" language. I don't know the definition of a dead language. I know it isn't in my house. Each night we finish prayers with "Hospodi Pomilju." (Excuse the spelling, I just spent another five days in the hospital and the meds are still working their way out of my system.)

There isn't that much Church Slavonic in any Christmas Liturgy. Not that much in any other special liturgies. It's Easter where we have the most "traditional" things going on. Processionals around the church. Knocking on the church door during Resurrection Service, keeping vigil at the grave. No one is suggesting getting rid of those things, as a way of updating evangelization. They don't seem to be getting in the way. So why is singing "Christos Voskres" in Church Slavonic it's entirety such a danger to evangelization? Why is the Otce Nas such a dangerous thing that we should do all we can to stamp it out? Because that is the feeling I get sometimes when I read posts such as yours, Dr. John.

Maybe I am reading too much into it. As I said, please forgive me, I've just gotten out of the hospital and the emotional drainage of the meds is something most people don't recognize or even realize. But getting medicine out of my system alays hits me very hard, emotionally. And this happens to be a subject near and dear to my heart. So I get very emotional. Call it bad timing.

You said "Yikes! I am very distressed to hear that the maintenance of the liturgical language is a value in itself, regardless of its effect upon the worshippers." I disagree. Have you seen the YouTube films of Liturgy sung in Aramaic? And stopped to think that these words are the way we would have heard Jesus himself say them? Or Peter? Or any of the Apostles? Doesn't that fill you with a kind of emotional upheaval? To think I am "THIS" close to hearing what Jesus might have sounded like? Doesn't that touch you in the least? If it doesn't, then I guess your statement I quoted is correct and it has no value. And I feel sorry for you. But I'd be willing to bet that it does have some value to you. That it does cause your heart to beat just a bit faster. And if it does with one language, then why not with another language? Even if it's just a personal connection. Which I am not the only one too share, by the way if you read the forums.

Is it something personal to me and my generation? Perhaps. But does that make it any less real? Does that make it any less worthy of respect? Because I don't hear the respect in your words. I hear "let's move on, use any language we need to use in order to gain new converts." And if we use that criteria, then how far are we to changing the words themselves? We can change the language and turn our backs on sacrifices that most of us couldn't even begin to understand, our lives are so good compared to our parents, grandparents or great grandparents. So it seems so very easy to take the next step and say--let's change the words too.

That's a pretty slippery slope to me. One I'm not confident in taking. I don't have that expertise in religion. Of course we need to use the vernacular in whichever country we are in. That is also part of the tradition I am fighting to maintain. So I don't have a problem with English. But what is the problem so many people seem to have with Church Slavonic? I don't understand. It always seem to be a one way street. Changing to English--good. Preserving Church Slavonic--bad. Why?

Again, your words--"But to insist on these non-living languages as the total expression of the faith is not going to serve the evangelization needs of a Church committed to the Gospel of "go out and get 'em!"" I don't expect that. Nor do I want it. But a little respect is a good thing. Especially on Easter. We look both forward and backwards on Easter. We remember what Christ did for us on that day of days--He died on the cross. But we also look forward to what it means--life everlasting. But which direction do we look more--forward or backwards? In my opinion, backwards. So why not do it in such a way as to really look backwards and honor not only the sacrifice Christ made, but the ones made over the centuries, including the courage of those taken when signing the Treaty of Brest or the Treaty of Uzhorod. Those were very dangerous times in which to live. It took great courage to do what they did. Yet we turn out back so easily on those dangers. And from there to the sacrifices made my my grandparents, whom I knew and loved.

Feel free to disagree. Maybe I shouldn't be writing this now due to my emotional state. Morphine and dialaudid have a habit of affecting more than just muscles and nerves. But I think you are making light of something that is much, much more than something analogous to a book written for teenagers. I feel the same way about using the word "Nazi." People say "parking nazi's" when they get a ticket that they probably deserved, if they were honest with themselves. That's dangerous and not right. What the Nazi's did is not analogous to getting a parking ticket. Words have power. To misuse a word is to take a risk in misusing the power that word has.

I'm not making fun of your English, please don't make fun of my attachment to Chruch Slavonic, especially on the day when the gates of hell were thrown open for both of us.

Again, I apologize if I am reading more into your posts than I should. Maybe it's bad timing. But I've heard you say the same things in other posts, and I disagreed then as well. I just didn't bother to reply for one reason or another.

Tim

Brother Tim, tjm, thanks for your really heartfelt post. I don't think that we are really disagreeing. I'm also of the ethnic persuasion (Greek) and I more than understand the nickels and dimes of the working people, our forebears, who struggled to get a place to worship on their own without relying upon the kindness of the Episcopalians or others who so graciously welcomed them into a building. (Our Greek Orthodox parish in Boston still maintains the simple paper icons that were donated to the parish by my grandparents and other families, when it was founded. There is a special 'room' at the iconostasis where the original paper icons from 1912 are maintained. The structure was built Unitarian - classic and valuable pipe organ!, then became a Synagogue and then the Greeks got the funds and purchased it.)

I'm a 'mutant', half Greek and half Irish/German/French RC. I grew up in both churches - every Sunday, not one Eucharist, but two. I have no antipathy to anything in the past history of the Church. I can liturgize not only in English, but also Latin (thanks to seminary), and Greek (thanks to family) and also Slavonic (thanks to seminary). And I can flip back and forth without batting an eye.

While I realize that the Roman Catholic tradition (whatever it may be in a parish church) will survive, and I realize that the Greek tradition will continue since the Greeks seem to move in everywhere!, I am generally concerned that the sanctifying traditions of the Great Church of Constantinople will be lost if we do not continue to evangelize in the US and the rest of America. I have no doubt whatsoever that the spirituality that is our heritage has an immense value in bringing people to the Gospel of Christ. It's more profound and more spiritually demanding and people who enter into this spirituality receive deep rewards for their efforts when they make them.

The real problem is this: if we 'over-do' the various ethnic elements, we are at risk of alienating those who might convert to the Gospel. This does NOT mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that we should eliminate all vestiges of our historical pasts. The question is: how do we 'translate' the crucial elements of our spirituality (like the elements of the Lenten fast, the vesper/matins services, the elements of "forgiveness vespers", the blessings of flowers/plants/herbs, the blessing of the baskets of non-lenten foods, etc.) into 'human' practices that are not necessarily linked to ethnic observances? Surely these practices devolved from the inspirations of the various ethnic groups (e.g., Greeks don't do the 'basket' thing - we bring the lighted candles home from the Paschal services at midnight and eat at home until dawn - scares the daylights out of the cops who see cars on the road with people carrying lighted candles - scarier for them than drug dealers I presume!)

But the main idea is: how do we entice the non-churched to take a good look at how we live the Gospel and welcome them to take a 'test-drive'? And for this, the whole shootin' match has got to be transparent - both in language and in the practices that MUST be explained to them. We don't need the folks who are just looking for another psychological trip in spirituality. (We've all seen the folks who turn into the Reader Pamphnutios who grow long beards, don't bathe and affect an accent for a language that they can't speak. And then move on after 3 years to become some sort of Hindu shaman and wonder-worker.)

So, I'm in no way denigrating the use of Slavonic or Greek or Arabic; I'm just suggesting that we need to blend elements of our ethnic heritages with our contemporary American/Canadian/etc. way of life so that we both acknowledge the heritage, but avoid any elements that will inhibit the pilgrims from taking a serious look at who we are and our way of coming to salvation.

If we rely solely upon those from our own ethnic backgrounds, then with the patterns of marriage, etc., we will be gone in 50 years. And the sacrifices of our grand-parents and our great-grandparents will be nothing more than a footnote in the Smithsonian. And I don't want that to happen either.

Blessings to you - and I hope the meds are finally worn off with little or no effect. Morphine and dilaudid are a nasty combo.

Dr John

When I was child growing up in the Latin Catholic Church, I can remember the beautiful traditional Latin Masses--and I yearned for those Liturgies after the Novus Ordo swept the country. I did not know one word of Latin. Fast forward many years. My wife and I were drawn to the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Neither of us had a drop of slavic blood. We embraced Church slavonic and began to learn the sacred language. Today, about one half of the Liturgy in our Orthodox Church is in Church Slavonic. Our toddler is picking up on Slavonic like a second language. I also notice that the young teens tend to embrace the beauty and poetic nuances of Church Slavonic.

So I disagree with you--as usual.

The ethnic make-up and loving warmth of our parishes can be a powerful evangelization tool.

God bless.

Recluse,

I couldn't have said it better myself, or agree with you more! I'm glad I'm not the only one who truly loves the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic.

I agree that he liturgical forms have a beauty unto themselves. Both the form as well as the music have the power to transport the worshipper from this world to the next. And this becomes part of the individual's experience of the 'other-wordlyness' that the rituals can encompass and provide. I am intrigued by the "my experience" and "my/we embracing" terminology. It's not "me" or "us", it's the unchurched that must be the focus for Christians. Although we don't use the word, we are supposed to be "evangelicals" - spreaders of the 'evangelium'. We have the 'mark'; we need to give it to others. We need the zeal: "because you are neither cold nor hot, therefore will I vomit you forth from my mouth".

The main issue is this: apart from the individual's experience, how can this formulation be used to bring others into the Word of the Gospel?

If people are not ready to become 19th Century Muscovites or 20th century Tridentine Latins, do we just say: too bad - go to the Evangelicals?

As the parable points out, when the Shepherd goes after the one sheep that is lost, are we willing to say: too bad you don't like the Latin or the Slavonic because your salvation depends upon this?

We MUST be in a mindset that is going after the ones who are seeking. We MUST be willing to sacrifice what makes US comfortable to reach out to those who need to hear the Gospel message. If it involves saying "all people who love the Lord" as opposed to "all men who love the Lord", is this too much of a price to pay to save someone else's soul?

I'm trying to listen to Jesus, the Christ. And He broke the rules to get to anyone and everyone to ensure their salvation. It is clear that His death and resurrection destroyed the old laws; how dumb is it for us to establish new laws that countermand what He set out to accomplish among people? As St. Paul put it: "Oh, the freedom of the people of God". It's the spiritual equivalent of saying: "Get over it; and get on with it."

Blessings to All!

Dr John

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If an unchurched person or a disaffected Western Christian walks into an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox church looking for meaningful worship, the sheer beauty of the Liturgy will win them over.

I really think that if they hear a native tongue of Slavonic, Ukrainian, Romanian, etc, mixed into the Liturgy that they might actually feel like, WOW, this a place that really worships God!

Recluse said it best a few posts above. He went from Latin to Ruthenian to Orthodox. He's doing fine, and so is the parish. Too much emphasis is being placed on language in the Eastern Church.

We're too small to be worried about what people might think if they hear a few words of a foreign tongue in our worship.

The beauty of the Christian East will win them over.

The nuance being that they are actually there. Choirs are choirs - that is like looking for an enthusiastic young conservative at GOP HQ. Are all the grandkids who aren't there as interested?

Sure, there will always be folks who are drawn to it for a variety of reasons - and I don't begrudge them that. There comes a point where it is useful and wise to recognize where your personal tastes and proclivities begin and end.

I do not understand your point? Are you saying that Church Slavonic should be phased out in the Ruthenian Catholic Church?

Amen Etnick. It is difficult to read that some people justify the use of gender neutral language and the phasing out of Church Slavonic as a means for evangelization. Perhaps someone will petition the bishops to re-translate the Liturgy once more into street slang.

The Liturgy evangelizes the world.
Changing the Liturgy through political agendas and modernizations will not ease our mission. But of course, some will learn this lesson the hard way.

Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voisinnu Voskrese! (Indeed, He is Risen!)

Another agreement, Recluse. Changing the Liturgy by making it more like every other Liturgy out there is not going to give anyone a reason to stay in the EC churches if there not one very, very close (or even convenient Liturgy times), nor is it going to attract people who are not familiar with us. What makes us different? That is our strength. And our strength is our Liturgy as well as our use of Slavonic. Religion is a very emotional thing--we don't use logic, we use our hearts. Being different touches people's hearts. Being the same as everyone else turns people away.

Small changes lead to big changes over time. Why not start using street language if that's what it takes to get people into the pews? Because then we are not who we are. Perhaps the biggest population of people who could prove the easiest to evangelize are those that have fallen away. And being different is not going to bring them back. The visceral experience they had as a child--Blessing of Baskets at Easter, Mirovanje, Palm and Pussy Willows on Palm Sunday, sitting Vigil at the Grave, singing in Slavonic, etc. Those are the ones that will leap out of their subconscious when they re-experience them. Doing away with them will just give them another reason not to attend an EC church.

By no means do we ignore those who have never been a part of the EC churches. But there are so many people out there that are prodigal sons, waiting to return. Let's fatten up the calf in anticipation and go after them! I was away for years. Now that I have returned I cannot tell you the joy I feel when I can attend Liturgy. It is just such an emotional experience. I look forward to it and feel cheated when I can't go for one reason or another. I want so much to have those things back I lost when I left the church. My present mission is small, so we don't even have a church of our own. But one day we will. And I will rejoice when I can sit Vigil at the Grave at Easter, process around the church and sing with all my heart--"Christos Voskrese iz mertvych!"

Tim

Please do us all a favor and write down the proper greetings and responses and when to say them. I do not remember "Christos Posredi Nas!" for some reason. We need to put them down in writing for everyone to refer to.

Throw me a bone, please!

Put Greeting in Slavonic, English translation. Response in Slavonic with English translation. Time period when it should be said and why.

Thanks!

Tim

Amen to you, my brother in Christ!
Your post was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit!

Christos Posredi Nas! (Christ is in our midst)
I jest i budet! (He is and ever shall be)

I really have no idea how you got that out of what I wrote. You are bringing "water to the well" on that reading of my comments and perhaps that is coloring what you are seeing.

My simple enough point is that when you say "I see the teenagers really take to it" That is of course an observation of the teenagers who ARE THERE. You expect to find a lot of, oh, I dunno, Pat Benetar fans at a Pat Benetar concert. It isn't exactly an unbiased sample.

I think Simple Sinner's point is well made. In our parish, we have a lot of younger folks of Carpatho background who are dating non Byzantines, and although they show up at the Festival and perhaps at Christmas and Pascha, aren't there at any other time. What's happening, and what can we do to change it?

We do mostly English, with some Slavonic thrown in, so I don't think it's the Slavonic that sends them away. Maybe it's the 'strangeness' of the ethnic liturgy that is so different from Western churchiness, or perhaps even the fact that as young people "church" is just a "whatever..." to them.

But that doesn't give us leave to just ignore the problem of not only bringing in new people, but also of retaining our own. If the whole thing were in Slavonic, I suspect that both visitors and the younger folks would just 'sample' and then head out the doors. "Beauty" is fine, and it may attract some folks. But, we have to get beyond 'beauty' as our sole advertisement, otherwise we are in competitiion with the symphony or the theater. And we're supposed to be a Christian community/church.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Well, Dr. John, If fallen away parishioners, and the gum chewing younger crowd (whom many I've seen have the attention span of a housefly) are scared away by the venerable traditions of the Eastern church, let them go elsewhere to find their nirvana. It just proves how shallow their faith and sense of tradition is to begin with.

The beauty and tradition of the Eastern church is just fine as it is. It should not have to "conform" to American ideas. After all, it was around long before America was. It "is what it is" for a reason. Take it or leave it.

I hope more take it!

Etnick,

Dr. John isn't suggesting we abandon our venerable traditions. He is suggesting we have been doing something wrong, which is either true and we need to correct it or it is false and Eastern Christianity is just too damn hard for most in a Western culture and has a limited appeal and we need to accept that. I suspect it is a little of both.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Well, I don't know what to say other than that maybe the glory days of the Byzantine tradition in the U.S. may be behind us.

Maybe another big wave of immigration from the old country is needed. One hundred plus years of presence here seems to not have done enough to spread the good news of the Byzantine faith to a Western Christian dominated country.

Because Christ didn't die for the half-wits with short attention spans that don't appreciate the things you did? They can go push a rope? Come to Jesus Christ - the savior of the world, present on our altars, ready to commune with you! - on our terms and couched in our ethnic preservationist preferences? "Go ye therefore and teach and passively hope to attract some nations with how your nation made these truths sacrosanct!"??

I have enough to answer for when "the day comes" - I am not adding that to the list.



Or maybe we need to wonder about the slavish adherence to "ours" and what it did to create parochial enclaves (let alone the infighting that divided us how many times over?)

Where are all the Greek Catholic grandkids?

If the solution really is that we need to "import more cause it hasn't taken in the west yet" just hang it up and throw in the towel now. Little secret? With Pizza Hut in Istanbul and Mcdonalds and Starbucks in Mockba, we are all in the West now.

13 years ago in Pittsburgh I saw that ethno-catering was a lot like impoverished aristocracy living off the last of the wine cellar - they could drink well every night, but the last bottle was in sight. Trips to all the ethnic festivals and clubs and visiting various and sundry parishes, time and time and time again I saw folks older than my parents with bouffants in all shades of Lady Clarol talking about "our people's ways" - what I did not see? "our people under 25"

Probably at the local Roman Catholic Church, (like my Greek Catholic Niece and Nephew, who I am Godfather to ) or at the mall, or at Starbucks.

Are you cool with that?

The Evangelicals don't have a single answer for this problem, which I would describe as how do you cater to the moving minimum. Business Week had an article about a related topic a few years back. In it was the following about one of the largest and most popular evangelical churches in the country



http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_21/b3934001_mz001.htm

The issue is where is the tipping point of abandoning who you are in order to reach those that are not among you? What exactly is acceptable? Obviously I posted what I consider the extreme, but maybe even that extreme will shift and move even further to reach some new minimum that is necessary in order to pull in those from contemporary society.

My own parish uses some Slavonic, similar to what some others have said here - usually one hymn a week, alternating responses when repeated, most greetings along with English, and often multiple or special hymns on major feast days. I am not Rusyn or cradle Orthodox, and I myself like the amount of Slavonic we use because of just my own personal preference (I think it is a beatiful language and some hymns just sound really good in Slavonic) and I think it is an authentic piece of the tradition of the church that is worth maintaining in some form.

I do however agree that the church has a mission to reach those outside its own walls and pronounce the gospel. I think it is exceedingly difficult for Eastern churches in this country to do that for a number of reasons; consumerism, the weirdness factor, individualism, anti authoritarianism, latent gnosticism, etc., etc. I think all contribute to making it hard for us to make a huge dent in society. Different churches/jurisdictions have different answers for how to spread out and grow. I don't know that there is a single correct answer.

My own parish (I've only been in it two years) has some of the problems I think Simple Sinner is talking about. In a lot of ways I think it can be somewhat insular, parochial, given to nursing past grievances and divisions (personal ones, not what happened in the 30's), resting on the laurels of what past generations did to found the church as an excuse for not really contributing anything now, a fair amount of nominalism and people happy to exist on the periphery of the church, education that could really use improvement, a bunch of Chreasters, and so on and so forth. I could make a huge list. There's a lot good in it too, don't get me wrong.

I think what we need is inner evangelization and a re-kindling of the Gospel spirit within. To my mind that means a good deal of re-enforcement of the traditional aspects of the liturgy and general piety and church behavior. In essence not watering down, but building up such things. Whether that is in English or Slavonic. What I also think is needed are the things Evangelicals often offer outside the worship service that we don't - Bible studies, fellowship, support and so on. The things that make a real community, and not just some place that people come together once a week.

I am sorry. I did not understand your post.

That is true. But I have also witnessed protestants teenagers who were completey captivated when they attended their first Divine Liturgy--Church Slavonic and all! And they kept comin back!

I was never a big Benatar fan.

Indeed.

Yes.

Amen, my brother in Christ! I could not have stated it better myself!

Christos Posredi Nas! (Christ is in our midst)
I jest i budet! (He is and ever shall be)

Dr. John---I owe you an apology for the rather lengthy post I sent the other day. As I said, just out of the hospital and the meds don't just affect muscles, they really do a number on the emotions. So, please accept my apology if I said anything that offended you in any way. I think we most likely agree more than we disagree.

BUT--and you knew there had to be a big but---I still feel we are simplifying the problem by taking it down to English versus Slavonic. And I still feel we must maintain our traditions (which include using the vernacular, in whichever country we happen to be) without abandoning a forward looking evangelization.

There is a magic or mystique to Slavonic. As many have said in this forum and this thread, some songs just sound better in Slavonic. People who are used to one certain type of Christian worship come into a Byzantine church, experience with their entire senses the Eastern Catholic way of of worship and are deeply impressed. It's not just the way the priest and deacons dress, it's the incense, the physical movements and seeing people really throw themselves into their worship. And, yes, it's Slavonic in my church.

The more we water down our past and forget our heritage, the more reason we give someone to go elsewhere. Including our own Byzantine Catholics. I'm the youngest of six kids. How many of us attend a Byzantine Church? Two or three. The rest attend RC churches or don't attend at all. Why? One doesn't believe in God at all. Sooner or later she'll come around. It's only a matter of time in my opinion. Others find it more convenient to attend an RC church, regardless of how close a Byzantine Church may be. That's their decision. We all had the same parents, the same upbringing, the same experiences. Why do some maintain and other's don't? Boy, if I could answer that question, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams since it would mean I have the ability to get into someone's head. I don't have that ability.

I think people make too much of the difficulty of Slavonic and that's why they tend to try to move it aside or diminish it. It's not that hard. Anyone with a minimum of intelligence can learn three or four sentences in Slavonic. Take the main Easter hymn--"Christ is risen from the dead. By death he conquered death. And to those in the graves, he granted life." How long is that? In English. How long would it take someone to learn it in English, especially if it is written down for them? No time at all.

Now translate--"Christos voskrese iz mertvych. Smertiju smert' poprov. i suschim vo hrobich zivot darovav." Most of the words are pronounced exactly as spelled. Some differrences--suscim, zivot. (I can't figure out how to get diacritical marks, if somene can help me, let me know. I'm a Mac person though, so PC apps won't do.)

And if someone did mispronounce those few words---would it matter? Would everyone in the church turn around and scream "Get out of here, you heathen!" No. No one would even notice, most likely. During Resurrection services we sang the hymns in English. I sang quietly to myself in Slavonic, as I do most of the time I attend Liturgy. My nine year old asked me what I was singing and I explained it was the same thing he was, just in another language.

Now, you have to understand, this was really the first time my son attended a Divine Liturgy like this. It's a long story, but the Byzantine mission I attend was just started in October 2005. So we have been attending a Lutheran church since we wanted him to have a religious upbringing (plus my wife is the paid organist) and I just can't bear to attend the two RC churches in our area. One is a round courthouse type building and the other one looks like a middle school gymnasium without the basketball hoops against the ceiling. No cross or crucifix inside the sanctuary, no pews, just padded chairs that hook together.

I had been telling him about the service--a procession around the church, knocking on the door, etc. My wife (raised United Church of Christ), my son and I attended both Friday night services and Resurrection services. So I was telling him about the vigil at the grave, candlelit processions, etc. He was mesmerized. He couldn't wait to go. And he was not disappointed. With the exception that since we don't have or own church, we don't have a vigil at the grave. He really wanted to do that with me. He now informs me he wants to attend Liturgy Saturday nights with me. When I asked him why--he said it's so different and so beautiful than what he is used to. The Lutheran service is boring to him, he said. This captured him--incense, clothing, etc. He keeps asking me why the priest is doing what he is doing, what is the deacon doing, etc.

My wife is a musician and picks up on music easily. He takes after her (piano, clarinet, guitar) and was belting out the songs lustily within a few minutes on both nights. He reads music and knew the guy behind us was flat and slow. But he was polite about it.

But back to Slavonic. He wanted to know what I was singing. I told him and went through it word by word. How long did it take him to get it? About three times. Yes, I know kids pick up things quickly. But any adult can also pick them up quickly--maybe we print it out phonetically. How many lines is it? Yet, how important is it to the entire meaning of Easter? And this is one of those hymns that just sound better in Slavonic.

We start easily--the greetings. Why do we do them? When do we do them? What's the significance of them. Then we move on. How hard would it be to sing The Thrice Holy Hymn" (Svjaty Boze, Svaty Kr'ipkij, Svjaty Bezsmertny, pomiluj nas. Cut me a break--it's eight words long and three of them are the same word!) Then "Holy, Holy, Holy." Maybe we move on up to "The Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit." And then, maybe even the Our Father. Which sounds so incredible in Slavonic.

I am teaching my son Slavonic slowly. Each night we end prayers with "Hospodi, pomiluj."And we make the sign of the cross, right shoulder first.

Oh, by the way, Dr. John. Is that another thing we should abandon? The way we make the sign of the cross? It's the way everyone did it for, oh, something like well over 1200 years. In your e-mail I responded to so emotionally, you talked (and have since) about being transparent in both language and other ways in order to attract new people. We can change to English, we can change many things about the Liturgy, so why no that too? It's more in line with what everyone else does. People expect it left shoulder first. It throws people to see it right shoulder first. But where does that slippery slope I mentioned start? With small changes that might seem insignificant at first, but multiply. And forgetting our past and our traditions, the things that make us "us" are the first step on that slippery slope. At least in my opinion.

This is already going on long enough. Please accept my apology if I said anything that offended you. But I feel strongly that if we forget our past, if we turn our backs on centuries of history we truly are going to see the death of our church. People want something different. Not too different, I agree. So Liturgies only in Slavonic are out, more is the pity. But just enough Slavonic or other languages to pique the curiosity, to arouse the "what are they doing and why" in everyone? I think that's the way back. Along with getting my brothers and sisters back into the pews, of course!

Tim - off topic - sort of -ish

go to your menu bar . Click on the wee flag [ mine has a Union Jack to show it's a Brit keyboard ] on the drop down menu go to Show Character Palette - you should find what you want there - given any degree of luck

Brother TJM - Tim - no apologies necessary at all! I hope that the medications are now over and that you're feeling yourself again.

I (too?) have an inclination to go on and on in posts about issues that mean something. After the reading, writing, editing and re-editing, I end up chastising myself for 3 hours of time that is now gone forever.

I very much enjoyed learning of your personal and family's history. It's is clear that people from historial places and times developed liturgies and ways-of-living that addressed their real concrete needs, as well as their cultural values. Like your wife, I too was an organist at both RC and Episcopal parishes and I LOVE nothing more than gradually opening up the (pipe) ranks and by the last verse both the organ and singers (and trumpeters when I could get them for descants!) would take the roof off the church and rattle the stained glass as the cross and banners and the clergy processed down the aisle. (I once played in a place where the organist controlled the bells, and when the ushers opened the big doors you could hear them in the background. I'm still getting goosebumps!)

It was a true "laos ergezei", the liturgy of people acting.

And this has got to be the ultimate goal: the whole parish has got to get frustrated waiting for the next parochial celebration. It should be that good.

Using other languages is fine, as long as it harmonizes with this desire. It serves a wonderful purpose in connecting the parish with the founders and the ancestors. But it should never get in the way of the parish having an emotional (dare I say: theatrical level) experience of the praying community. We should use all the "arts" to enhance the experience of the community. (I recall a photo of an OCA priest in a procession with other clergy and the bishop, and he had a phelonion containing flowers, trees, animals, etc. - it looked WAAAAY out of place in this procession of expensive brocades. But it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it had been made by the children of the priest's parish. And I thought: WOW! He's got the kids really involved, and he's got the loving commitment to share it outside their parish church. Bless him and his people!)

I think it's good that your son is getting the chance to pray in different communities. Being musically inclined, he is probably most comfortable praying where there is good music. Chances are, he'll never become a Quaker. ("What? It's over?") So, when there is 'good' music, and I'm not talking about nasal NASCAR-speed cantors or priest, it is a worshipful and artistic experience. And folks come back to pray.

Certainly, people make choices. I've been to services (Episcopal) organized by the teenagers, where the music was like AC/DC and MegaDeath, with a little Alice Cooper thrown in. It was like being in a nightclub - with a Gospel reading by the pastor and a communion service. I suppose that some teens would like it and continue to come back. For me, it was an 'interesting' experience - not likely to draw me back. The same can be said of other 'typologies' of liturgical celebration. Each individual is going to uncover some liturgical community where he/she can pray, and will go back because of the joy of the worshipping experience.

There are times when I recall the old Latin low Mass. You got into the pew, you pulled out your rosary, you stood/knelt/sat as appropriate and then went to communion and it was over. The shortest one I remembered - worker chapel in downtown Boston, was 17 minutes from start to finish so people could get to their jobs but still attend Mass. Certainly one type of liturgy.

I also recall Our Lady of Kazan in Boston, with Fr. Mowatt (of happy memory), where at Pascha we started with the lamentations at 10:30 and then went through Paschal Matins, the Liturgy, anointings, etc. followed by the blessing of baskets. We ended at 3:45 a.m. (The good father brought out a thermos of Manhattans for the choir - 4 people - one ethnic Russian, one high school Russian teacher, one DP from somewhere in East Europe and a Greek-American Jesuit scholastic.) I slept for two days. There were 4 Russsians in a congregation of about 25 for the service.

My main point is: liturgy must come from the people it is serving. Imposing stuff is neither a good nor potentially fruitful idea. But neither is pointing to footnotes on page 276 of the "Typikon of the Great Church of Constantinople".

Interesting enough, apropos Pope Benedict's visit, I recall as a student in the Munich-Freising Archdiocese, being surprised by the way the Germans conducted liturgy. At the time of Luther and the Protestants, the protestants celebrated services in German and with magnificent music. (Bach. Is there anything better?)

The Catholics responded by having 'hymn-lets' - auf deutsch - that paralleled the various Latin elements of the Mass. The priest said the 'official' words in a low voice and the congregation, accompanied by pipe organ, sang the German equivalents. The music was really good and the Germans, as they are wont to do, sang lustily. Liturgically, they beat the reformers at their own game. (Don't tell your Lutheran wife! No dinner or clean clothes for you!!)

I hope that we can find ways to make the Constantinopolitan liturgics and spirituality a viable option for Americans, especially the young ones.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Dr. John. You are such a nice man. Thanks for your responses. God Bless you. The problem lies with me as I just can't seem to find the right words to express what I am trying to say. I teach these days and I can tell you that those of us who are serious about teaching are very concerned when we can't get across what we want. It's not the other person's fault--it's ours for not finding the right words or analogies. Of course, there's always the possibility that I'm actually wrong or simply not looking at it correctly and you are. I do admit that possibility.

I just can't seem to find the right way of explaining why not letting go of the language during liturgy and even the simple greetings are so important. And maybe they aren't, except to me and a few others of my generation. Maybe it is just a personal thing. I don't know. I'll have to think about it and maybe try again in a shorter post, possibly private mail. I don't know.

I thank you for your patience and your responses. They do make me feel better. I'm just frustrated that I can't find the correct words. At least yet. So for the meantime, I'm sure you won't mind agreeing to disagree on the matter. It isn't really up to us anyway since it will be the Eparchs and priests who decide how much of which language is used in Liturgy or anywhere else. Of course, as parishioners, we do have the power of speech and I intend to speak up to my priest. He's a good man and I could tell on Resurrection Saturday night he was not the happiest that we tried "Christos Voskrese" and it failed miserably. He mentioned during the homily about the greetings we use and even had them printed in the bulletin in English, Slavonic and Greek and pointed them out to everyone and asked them to use them. So I think he would like to see the past preserved. It's just an uphill battle if the parishioners don't care and don't want to learn. I guess that will be my job to try to light a fire under them, especially the ones of my generation who remember but don't have it down exactly yet.

But please accept my thanks once again.

Tim

ps--I love the last post about the music. My wife will appreciate it. She plays the organ and loves to make it soar and swell. It just doesn't happen that often in the Lutheran services at the church she play. They are leaning towards the "modern" worship service and settings. It's a bit frustrating for her.

X. B.
C. I. X.

Why are we asking only about Slavonic? How much Greek was used during Resurrection? Remember when we use to chant John I in 12 different languages? I do because that was when we servers use to hold the Gospelbook as human lecterns.

You are absolutely correct, Myhhayl. It is not just about Slavonic. I started the thread and since I am Carpatho-Rus, I went with Slavonic. But if you read the threads we do correct ourselves and mention other languages as well. The arguments for and against using the older languages are the same, regardless of which language we are talking about. So we did mention others. But thanks for bringing it up.

Tim

Tim, I understand your ideas very well. There is something 'comforting' in using religious texts, prayers, art and music that accompany our faith practices. And when these elements were co-acquired, they become even more special.

I must confess that I will sing (in the privacy of my own car) some old hymns - in whatever language, including English - just spontaneously. And I have no clue why I'm singing an old Irish hymn to St. Joseph, or the "Agni parthene despina" (Part of the "Hail Bride Unwedded") in Greek. They just pop into my head and I start humming or singing. I'm sure the psycoanalysts would have a field day with me!

My suspicion is that there is some stimulus in either my own heart or in the environment that subconsciously dredges these musical memories up. But it is clear that they each have emotional values that perhaps I am needing at that particular moment.

I guess the real question is how can we not lose the 'good stuff' from the past, but at the same time make sure that we are doing outreach? Forcing the issue doesn't seem to work - I get really pissed when I see someone wearing a "Recovering Catholic" T-shirt. Sometimes I'll ask, and I usually get the response: "well, I went to Catholic school or CCD up until the 9th grade, but it was stupid and then I quit." My usual response is: "Catholicism is an adult faith and a system for living a rewarding life. You wouldn't expect to survive in today's world with a 9th grade education; how can you expect to have a real spiritual life for your total self if you quit learning at the age of 15? Perhaps you were too immature for your age to get it." It usually shuts them up.

As an educator, I suspect that the the 'drop-outs' were too focused on the externals, and the need for personal self-examination and reflection passed them by. (Perhaps it was the instruction. Unfortunately we have way too many kind-hearted souls who volunteer to do Christian education but who have no skills or training. And the damage that is done is immense. It's Hallmark Catholicism, replete with feathered angels sitting on fluffy clouds and a blond, blue-eyed Jesus.) And sometimes it's the historical or ethnic traditions or beliefs that, despite explanation, are counterproductive.

While those of us who both understand and appreciate the customs should not let them go, we should be really sure that they are explained - and explained well! - and that we should not be afraid to introduce newer American-ethnic traditions and beliefs that may have a better chance of speaking to the upcoming generations. Our parish - near the nation's capital - does a bang-up Sunday near the 4th of July. (We have lots of government employees and DoD folks.) And at our annual "Festival" (I still call it the parish picnic), we have a flag raising ceremony, a moment of silence for those serving our country and for those who have died, and we raise the flag and sing "God Bless America". Both "Eastern Catholic" and "American" at the same time. The same for Thanksgiving Day and Memorial Day.

And on Memorial Day, despite its inception as a memorial for our departed military, major cemeteries will have many Orthodox priests moving about blessing the graves of the departed, military or not. [One year, we were late - couldn't find the appropriate flowers for planting - and the only priest left was an Albanian. For Greeks to have an Albanian priest - yikes! But it had to be done, so we did it, slipped him an envelope and resolved to get there earlier next year so we could have Fr. Costa.]

I think that you too, TJM, will start to establish these customs - Slavic or otherwise - and they will become part of your family's routine. And if you should skip them, there will be hell to pay!! And that's OK.

And I must mention to Mykhyl, it was always the custom among the Slavs to have the Gospel of John read in as many languages as the clergy could muster. Our Ruthenian parish this year did Slavonic, English and Latin. When we had other visiting priests (usually Latin rite folks) we added "school Greek" - the kind that made my mother irate and has no correlation to real Greeks. I believe that one year we had Hungarian - that was GREAT!

With all kinds of Blessings,

Dr John

X. B.
C. I. X.

Tim,

Forgive me if I was vague, I was not speaking of only using living languages amongst the people but including some just for show, and the off chance of a visiting pilgrim might understand. Of course we are speaking of the 50 and 60’s before people got the idea Vatican II was that the people had to understand the language for everything that was said even if they didn’t understand what was being said.

The pragmatic pastor I had back then really only did three Paschal Gospel readings, first in Shevchenko Ukrainian, second in thee and though English popular then and a third in a mix of languages and only in a verse or two. Much like the “hear our prayer” petitions at the Papal Mass. If I remember his formula Greek, Hebrew and Latin from the cross, Slavonic for the bishop and French, Spanish and German for our Hi school students. The three left was probably Polish, Hungarian, and Croatian or Slovak thrown in so the people could say our parish was cosmopolitan and used a dozen languages to be inclusive. One year he did Russian and several people commented about that, but in the negative. Of course Christos Anesti was sung but only when the choir was there to pull it off.

Those were the days of showmanship probably aided to our idea of mystery which we lost. Do you remember the 12 Gospel reading with extinguishing 12 candles, one after each reading in 12 different colored vestments? We used two sets of servers, or should I say stagehands. When the Gospel of the crucifixion was read we turned off all the church lights, slapped cookie sheets together to imitate thunder and flashed the lights in the sanctuary like lightening. Like I believe Dr. John was saying there is more then what we understand that helps us understand. Now the closest we get to showboating is lowering the body cutout icon with a white sheet down from the cross before Our Lord’s layout.

To answer your question from last Easter, we usually do Slavonic on all the thrice repeat prayers, it seams to be easier for the people to learn and remember those.

Mykhayl

Because Church Slavonic is a sacred language and it speaks to your heart.

Thanks, Mykhal. I absolutely love the description of the service. I wish we had done that much. We did the reading of the Gospels, but I cannot recall doing twelve languages. My parents commented every year about how impressive that was and how much they wish we were still doing it. Our parish priest was a good man, but had some problems and even had to have help with Communion. As I understood it, he would get nervous with large crowds and there was the chance of dropping the Eucharist. So for large Liturgies (even the second Sunday service) we always had a second priest helping out.

The idea of extinguishing the candles one by one is wonderful! I can just see it in my mind's eye now. And Dr. John's description of what they do at his parish during major holidays thrills me. We are a small mission now but maybe one day (in my lifetime, I hope) we can be big enough to really get a "show" going for Liturgy. There is the theatrical element to a liturgy that should not be ignored. It should never overpass the real reason, but between the vestments, incense, good singing, lighting and other things, it is a show that just makes me want to come back for more and more each week. I don't mind spending 90 minutes or two hours or more in church when I really get something out of it. Time flies for me when I'm singing in Slavonic and really getting into it.

Thanks for the understanding.

Tim

Recluse--you hit the nail on the head. It does speak to my heart. I'm not even going to try to understand why. I just accept it and know that my heart is not complete without it. I feel closer to God singing "Christos Voskrese..." than I do singing "Christ is Risen..." A personal thing? Probably. But that's ok. Isn't religion about a personal relationship with our saviour?

Thanks so much.

Tim

TJM, it seems like you are going through an 'epiphany' in which a lot of spiritual things are making themselves manifest in your soul. And like a kid in a candy-store, there are just so many things that appeal to you. The Gospel touchstone is: use whatever will bring you closer to Christ and to His Gospel.

Thare are many things that satisfy us, and they are good; but there are others that are MORE useful tools/mediators in helping us be vibrant Christians. And we must take hold of these to energize our outreach to the unchurched.

There are many things that help us personally in our quest for salvation. They must be nutured and enhanced, as with your feelings when singing "Christos Voskrese" as opposed to "Christ is Risen". Not a problem. This is personal prayer, and this is what monastics strive for in their countess hours of personal prayer. And liturgical prayer must augment and supplement this. But as the prayer of St. Francis implores: "Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace...." Prayer is not only to unite us individually and "personally" to Christ, but it must instigate us to be an instrument of bringing others to Christ and to do outreach to others. And we must select the modality of prayer that helps us accomplish this. And this applies both to personal prayer, and also to public prayer.

Mykhayl highlights an imporant element of this: the readings of the Gospel in as many languaages as possible is a visible sign that we are going out to everyone and preaching the Resurrection of Christ to all nations. It is, as Mykhayl notes, an element of 'showmanship'; not of the linguistic prowess of the clergy, but rather a highlight of the universality of the message that needs to be preached/spoken to all nations. I.e., "from the North and the South; and the East and the West...."

Helping our people to 'baptize' American customs and realities and make them part of our Eastern Christian patrimony can only help us to spread the Gospel and the universality of the Constantinopolitan approach to salvation. We hold a wonderful sense of the transcendence between our world and the "other" world as expressed in icons; we hold strongly to the absolute value of family and parish/church as co-components of the 'koinotis/community' that constitutes the individual building-block of the universal Church; we see as perfectly natural the understanding of 'living saints on earth' united with the 'saints who have gone before' and the universal participation of all the baptized in the fulfilment of salvation; and we see the action of the Holy Spirit which holds the whole of consecrated creation into a unified body.

The individual sanctified and praying Christian must find salvation within the context of the 'church' as community; and the individual churches must find their salvation through their bishops, in the unity of the Church of the baptized faithful. This is the critical element. But it MUST include an element of evangelization that reaches out to those who are not of the 'household of the faith' and let them know that there is a place for them already set aside - as there is a place set aside for them in the heavenly mansion.

Blessings!!

Dr John

X. B!
C, I, X!
“There are many things that satisfy us, and they are good; but there are others that are MORE useful tools/mediators in helping us be vibrant Christians. And we must take hold of these to energize our outreach to the unchurched.” quote Dr. John

If it’s not broke why fix it? Why is it now vogue to take popular customs of inclusiveness and make them exclusive? Our Paschal food blessing was an organic counterreformation development from the bottom up. In some parishes it was better attended then their services, because after “Baba” (granny) died her Protestant granddaughter or RC grandson who helped her pack and carry her basket to a Saturday afternoon blessing was still doing it. Although it was after noon Holy (Great) Saturday we were told we could not sing “Khrystos voskrese” any more because we will confuse the peasants, then the felons disappeared. Now they want to eliminate the strangers altogether by only having one blessing, after the Easter Resurrection Matins with Divine Liturgy marathon. Its not Tradition, we should promote this custom and place invitations to the general public to join us by advertising in the local paper with times and location.

Turning our parish churches into monasteries to make us appear more orthodox is one thing, but killing these “kitchen” churches is another. Relevance to the unchurched is as much our responsibility and even more important than impressing the priest’s family. Is not John 17:11 prayed in the plurality not conforming unification? How did that other Western guy St. Augustine say it "In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in all things charity”.

X. B!
C, I, X!

Brother Mykhayl notes:

“There are many things that satisfy us, and they are good; but there are others that are MORE useful tools/mediators in helping us be vibrant Christians. And we must take hold of these to energize our outreach to the unchurched.” quote Dr. John

If it’s not broke why fix it? Why is it now vogue to take popular customs of inclusiveness and make them exclusive? Our Paschal food blessing was an organic counterreformation development from the bottom up. In some parishes it was better attended then their services, because after “Baba” (granny) died her Protestant granddaughter or RC grandson who helped her pack and carry her basket to a Saturday afternoon blessing was still doing it. Although it was after noon Holy (Great) Saturday we were told we could not sing “Khrystos voskrese” any more because we will confuse the peasants, then the felons disappeared. Now they want to eliminate the strangers altogether by only having one blessing, after the Easter Resurrection Matins with Divine Liturgy marathon. Its not Tradition, we should promote this custom and place invitations to the general public to join us by advertising in the local paper with times and location."

I'm not quite sure who's doing what in this post. What I DO understand is that the Slavs have a unique custom about the blessing of the baskets of foods that we forsook during the Great Lent. And it's also clear the the Byzantine Church did an anticipation of Pascha on Saturday, - kind of a 'sneak peek', like we just can't WAIT for Pascha Sunday, so that the blessings of the baskets, etc. would take place on Holy Saturday. Greeks don't do baskets; we get the Paschal eggs at Anastasi on Saturday night Matins and Liturgy, and this is our symbolic 'end of the fast' and a welcome to the Resurrection. Then we go home and have our Paschal meal.

"Turning our parish churches into monasteries to make us appear more orthodox is one thing, but killing these “kitchen” churches is another. Relevance to the unchurched is as much our responsibility and even more important than impressing the priest’s family."

Amen to that! Let's face it, as "all politics is local", so too is the church: local; meaning that the church is really the families that constitute the parish community. What the families in the parish do is really what the church is. And since the priest is supposed to be "from the people", he should understand what the people's customs are and acquiesce to them.

The Slavs constitute their various communities with their own practices; so do the Greeks, Arabs, Ethiopians, Copts, etc. And, in my opinion, there is no need for uniformity. The Slavs, in the North, use pussy willows for Palm Sunday because they don't grow palm trees. In the palm areas, we continue to use palms. It's just a question of what the people "need to do". This is truly the "kitchen churches".

The blessing of the baskets is certainly an element of what Constantinopolitan Christians do as an essential public tradition to support our spiritual journey. I think having an "invitation to the general public" is absolutely INSPIRED! Maybe some Western Christians will begin to understand what we do, and question and deepen their understanding of their own practices as a result of seeing what the ancient Byzantine traditions are. (I do NOT intend in any way to denigrate the Western customs and even their later practices that eliminated the real fast, but I think that every Christian should be exposed to and helped to understand that what they do is not the whole thing for the whole church. That they learn that we abstain from meat and dairy products for 54 days may make them think: "what is this? And why did we lose it?". And this is a good thing.)

And it should be accompanied by coffee, pastries, literature, music and a welcoming fellowship. ("if you feed them, they will come")

For those families who do basket blessing on Saturday (and as I understand it, the priest journeyed from home to home to bless the baskets), this should continue. But we might also consider the general basket-blessing after Paschal Matins and liturgy, and make real use of Mykhayl's suggestion to advertise this to the general community. It's GREAT evangelization and a real and serious invitation to our fellow Christians to learn about the Church's history from the ancient times. And many Protestants are quite open to learning. Even if they remain in their own communities, they have the blessing of knowing that there are other Christians, including us "strange" Easterns, who are part of the family.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

[quote] The blessing of the baskets is certainly an element of what Constantinopolitan Christians do as an essential public tradition to support our spiritual journey. I think having an "invitation to the general public" is absolutely INSPIRED! Maybe some Western Christians will begin to understand what we do, and question and deepen their understanding of their own practices as a result of seeing what the ancient Byzantine traditions are. /quote]

Well, I don't agree with much of what you say "Dr. John," but I do agree with this idea. Our church does basket blessings, then we sit and sample from each others' baskets. We traveled together during Lent, we should eat our Paschal foods together too. It's a great community builder.

X. B!
C, I, X!

“I’m not quite sure who’s doing what in this post. What I DO understand is that the Slavs…” Welcome to our world Dr. John.

An old wife’s tale state the Romans embrace the Church out of duty to the law, the Greeks due to their respect of philosophy, and the Slave because the love it. In plain English if the Slav’s don’t like it nothing you can say or do will get them to change their minds. You think I’m kidding? It took 800 years but Kyiv is a capital again isn’t it?

Although a brainstorming exchange I think is more stimulating then platitudes backing a predetermined idea, here is a question whose facade will keep the thread’s integrity pure. For those parishes retain a conveyance of also blessing Paschal foods on Saturday, are you permitted to sing “Khrystos voskrece !” (that’s Slavonic for Christ is risen)? Likewise was/is the Lord’s grave up for veneration or had/has it been dismantled in accordance to Greek custom?

Back on track, hope your anointing was blessed. Hope your Pascha follows with a meaningful celebration.

This applies to 2008 - in other words, the day before yesterday.

Hmmm. We sang "Vhrist is Risen from the dead" in a variety of languages, including Church-Slavonic (Old-Rite text, of course), Greek, Ukrianian, and Romanian. We sang the Hymn of Light in Church-Slavonic. That was probably the extent of Church-Slavonic in our community. No one asked for any more.

Christ is Risen!

Fr. Serge

We did nothing more than utilize Church Slavonic for "mixing up Christ is Risen" (Did throw in one Hungarian as well ) and took part of one of the Odes at Resurrection Matins in Church-Slavonic as well...

Job

Job, what parish do you attend now?

X.B.! B.B.!

Ung

'Slave', or 'Slav'???

... well the English word for "Slave" does have it's root in the word "Slav".

Ung

X. B!

Sorry I am a slave to this automatic spell check which only works when you don't want it to and I can't figure out how to eliminate it. Slav gave us slave in English but in "our way" it gave "slava", that is glory which gives our form for orthodox or in "our way" "true praise".

Father I am so glad Christ rose in Dublin and the priest did not collapse. So was it you that sang "Plotee"? Usually I am only impressed off of a good CD, the last really good in person soloist I heard sing it was 20 years ago, today he is bishop of Chicago. This year my pastor did such a nice job with the Exapostilarion I looked upon him only as a priest of God for the rest of Matins. Music can tame the beast in us. Then he decided to improve the sermon of Saint John. Vanity goes before the fall... in all of us.

P. S .
I usually cut and past so its my program not the Forum's
Mykhayl

During Resurrection matins all of our hymns were either done in English and Slavonic or only in Slavonic.

X. B!

AMM

Very nice. Which one of our half dozen churches in Pennsylvania did you attend?

I am the cantor at St. John the Baptist Orthodox Church in Stratford, CT (Silver Lane) which is under the omophor of Metropolitan Nicholas (ACROD)

St. John the Baptist Orthodox Church

My church is Carpatho-Russian.

and Voistinu voskrese!

Would that be St. Nicholas ACROD in Homestead PA?

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung

We did a fair amount of Slavonic at St. Nicholas, Homestead (I'm in the choir there). Our cantor Reader Andrew Talorovich is quite adept in Slavonic and really belted out hymns and the tropar, though I think we did the kondak chorally... I don't remember if it was english or slavonic though. we did do "jelicy" in slavonic, for sure, and alternated at Resurrection matins between "Christ is risen from the dead" and "Christos voskrese is mertvych". We also did "The Angel cried" in slavonic. Even Father, who doesn't use so much Slavonic, was having a good time singing Slavonic! It was great!

B>B>

Nope, other side of the Carpatheghenies. I'm in Eagle country. Our priest is from the Burgh though.

In our services not much, During Paschal Matins I used Slavonic a few places, during Holy Friday I used Slavonic for the tropar as we processed around the church. Liturgy was standard, Svaty Boze, Ize, Let our mouths be filled, Dostonjo Jest, Holy Holy... but seriously I'm glad 98% of it was done in English. The prayers are so meaningful and beautiful that understanding them is essential. My cousin passed over a month ago and all the funeral services were chanted in English (except Vichnaya Pamyat). With so many of our family having left Eastern Christianity it was nice for them to be able to attend the funeral and understand and learn, remember our services teach our faith. If it would have been in Slavonic no one would have understood or learned what the prayers were teaching us.

My condolences on the passing of your cousin. Although we know that the servant of God has passed on to 'home', it is still nonetheless an occasion for sorrow and loss of someone who is loved and cherished.

I hope that the committal and the services were able to convey to the family the sense of love and caring that the Church has for all who leave this life.

I know that it is hard to cantor for a passing, and especially so when it is a member of the family and when we are praying for that family member. But it is the reality, and we approach it with faith.

Your Paschal experience seems to mirror that of many - a mixture of English and Slavonic (and other languages, as appropriate). This is a good thing. And your ability to use your musical and language talents is certainly a gift from God for you to use with your community.

Christos Voskrese!

Dr John

Condolences on you loss, Matt. I'm sorry.

You make a very good point, one I had never thought of. You know my feelings in using Slavonic--not 100% but enough to keep tradition alive and educate the future generations. But in something like this, it would be much more important for the people who don't know Slavonic to have the service in English. What we say are not just "words" but they mean something. Just as when we make the sign of the cross, we are not just making a motion with out hands--we are actully doing something. Asking the the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to do something for someone or something.

It would be more meaningful to know what the words are and understand them. I'm sure there will be people at my service (whenever that should happen) who will not know Slavonic. I still want Slavonic, but it is my personal choice. It might even spark something in someone.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

Tim

ps--how are things going? You can PM me. April was really, really bad month for me.

I attended St.Theodosius Cathedral this year for Pascha. I can say for a fact that more Slavonic was used there than I would have heard at my home parish. (Judging by last year at my home parish). It seems like St. Theodosius reserves it for Pascha, whereas my parish does it regularly throughout the year.

Indeed, in those few GOA parishes where services are chanted in English, one can see in the faces, how the profound and deep meaning overwhelmingly touches those attending--and how the theology of our faith becomes crystal clear...

Speaking from personal experience, when another language other than one's native English is used, *especially* in the chants, people are simply there in body-- and perhaps private prayer--(if not elsewhere-- as the mind easily wanders) but they are not there in full and complete communal worship of our Eastern faith.

My condolences on the passing of your cousin.

In Christ,
Alice

Speaking from personal experience, when another language other than one's native English is used, *especially* in the chants, people are simply there in body-- and perhaps private prayer--(if not elsewhere-- as the mind easily wanders) but they are not there in full and complete communal worship of our Eastern faith.

In Christ,
Alice [/quote]

Alice,

I continue to have the complete opposite experience in the Ruthenian parishes that I attend. There are but a few parishioners in these parishes, many elderly like my 91 1/2 year old father, who do not sing the new RDL English, as it is foreign to them. But once parts of the Divine Liturgy revert back to the Levkulic Ruthenian Music in English, these elderly parishioners start to sing. Now these same liturgies with a few parishioners attending will literally "blow the roof off" of their Temples when Church Slavonic is sung. Again, I don't buy into the argument that traditional Church Slavonic, Arabic and Greek liturgical languages hurt parish grow and I believe where they are still used, actually sustain parishes.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese! Khristos Anesti! Alithos
Anesti!

Ung

I am sorry. I disagree. I am fluent in Greek, yet never really could pick up what was being chanted in Greek. When our priest's friend, a former seminarian, replaced the former whiney Greek chanters we used to have and started chanting in English, it blew my head--I finally could understand the chants, and WOW!!! It was like I had just heard the language of angels--my OWN! Indeed, everyone feels as if their native born language (church or otherwise) is the language of angels--because the precious spiritual food which nourishes in the prayers is fed to them to understand.

My husband, who is American but grew up in Greece, feels the opposite way from me regarding English. He prefers Greek, however he understands my position, and I understand his. Just as he cannot always pick up the lyrics in rock songs, I could not pick up the 'lyrics' in church songs. Just as he felt a bit 'out of it' liturgically when we attended an all Slavonic ROCOR service...American born generations of Greek heritage often feel a bit 'out of it' liturgically when hearing Greek services...

I humbly suggest that we must all put ourselves in the shoes of the other in order to understand them. I understand your grandfather's joy in hearing Slavonic. I understand my husband's joy and the joy of those who are Greek born, in hearing Greek-- *but*-- I also understand my children and countless, countless other American born children who are reared in the church and who have been involved in all the ministries for youth of the church, who complain that they just don't understand what is going on. I was also one of them. With my new priest and chanter, I finally, after forty some years, actually fell in love with my Orthodox faith. I finally knew what it was all about, and why it was awesome, because after years of catechism, Greek Orthodox parochial school, Greek Orthodox camps, teaching Sunday School, and countless other ways in which I contributed to Greek Orthodoxy in the U.S., through my native tongue of English, I was finally able to fall in love with the Liturgy and other services.

I know that this is a hot topic for you, and it is also for the Greek Orthodox Church in America. My opinions, however, have nothing to do with your church and your liturgy, etc., because I am not a member, and I cannot speak for you. Each church has unique situations and cultural mindsets which the other does not know.

For my church, I have come to understand both sides. I have always thought that the wisest thing to do would be to have alternate liturgies during the month--one all Greek and one all English, but priests have explained to me the drawbacks on that.
I believe that Archbishop Iakovos, of blessed memory, gave the best directive (which fell to the wayside after he retired); for those parishes with a majority of English speakers, services should be primarily in English; for those parishes with a majority of Greek born parishioners, the services should be primarily in Greek.

Disclaimer: My opinions have to do *only* with the Greek Orthodox Church in America and Greek Americans, and the opinions and feelings I have with the language are my own. The English chanter and priest I mention have awesome presence, voices and depth of feeling, so I can only speak for an all English liturgy, as I have experienced it with them, although I have also felt this way at St. Vladimir Seminary services.

In Christ,
Alice

I humbly suggest that we must all put ourselves in the shoes of the other in order to understand them. I understand your grandfather's joy in hearing Slavonic. Alice [/quote]

Not Grandfather, father, as I'm the youngest of 16 childern. I've stood next to him in church since the day I was born. I do not buy into this "All English All-American" Eastern Church theory". It is contrary to what I have experienced and continue to experience.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung

Dear Ung,

As I said, (and for some reason, in your responses, I feel that I am not being granted the respect of being heard out), we are all entitled to our opinions and feelings, as God has created us differently, and He often speaks to us differently...(that is why I do not put down the traditions and worship of other non-Eastern Christians), but I think that it is good to also try to understand another person's opinions and feelings.

Forgive me for making the error in typing grandfather instead of father.

I rejoice that you rejoice in hearing and experiencing God in Slavonic!
May He continue to bless you in the services you enjoy!

In Christ,
Alice

I think if a language makes sense for a community, and it's what they want to use, they should use it.

I can say for myself, without the liturgy being almost entirely in English, I couldn't attend. I don't have some issue with Slavonic or ethnicity and so on, I just couldn't understand what was going on. Having some hymns in Slavonic is fine with me, and they do sound beautiful. I can say I do notice that the number of people who sing, when Slavonic is used, is much smaller than when English is used. This is not because people around me are anti Slavonic, I don't know anybody who is, they just don't know the language and it isn't taught to the kids or the adults who don't know it. It just isn't a priority.

For us, the simple fact is there aren't going to be new people showing up from Central Europe.

...that's all we're asking. A few Marian Hymns, Eucharistic Hymns,Kol'jady Carols, a few Svjatyj Bozhe's, Izhe Cheruvimy's in Church Slavonic won't hurt any parish and it will make the surviving childern of the immigrant founders feel good. When ever we play tapes of Slavonic liturgical songs and hymns for my father at home, he becomes energetic and full of life. This is also true when my father attends Divine Liturgy and he hears Church Slavonic hymns and parts of the liturgy sung in Church Slavonic , it is a great pick-me up for these tired and weary souls. Let us give these forebears of the faith a little comfort in their last days.

Ung

I have to agree with Ung on this one. I don't think all Slavonic services all the time are a good idea. I don't think an all Slavonic service even once a month is a good idea. But a few hymns, once or twice a month, is all I'm asking.

I respect that most people who attend the Ruthenian churches don't know Slavonic and were not brought up speaking or even hearing the language. Ung and I and those like us are the minority, I'm sure. So having the Liturgy in English is the way to go. It only makes sense. But a few hymns maybe once a month would not hurt anyone.

Is it a personal thing? Is it something that will fall by the wayside when my generation dies? Maybe. I don't know. But 85% English and 15% Slavonic once a month will not hurt the younger generation. AMM is right--we need to respect each other's opinions. And I think we do, for the most part. But I do see a lot of people who think that even a few hymns in Slavonic would be a bad thing. And that's not respecting our generation.

Again, this is only my opinion and applies only to the Ruthenian Church. I don't know enough about the Greek churches or other churches to form an intelligent opinion. (Many people will say I can't form an intelligent opinion on any topic. But my relatives love me anyway ) But seriously, respect for other's opinions is something we should all do. Why? Because of what Jesus said in Mathew--what we do to others, we do to him. Pretty simple when one looks at it from that perspective!

My church does English only. But it doesn't stop me from singing quietly to myself the hymns in Slavonic. Not loud enough to throw anyone sitting behind me or in front of me. But loud enough for me to know what I'm doing. And that gives me the "language of the Angels." It would be nice to hear everyone singing the same language. That does blow the roof off. But I know that won't happen in my church. So I do what I can. Jesus understands.

Tim