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All,

I have hijacked this post from the "A common date for Easter when???" thread because I thought it illustrates the emotion that accompanies these discussions about the calendar:
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by ajk
Amens are fine, but understand that no amount of Amens are going to make God's Sun and Earth and its moon do what the Julian calendar and Metonic cycle predict.

I have written "amen" because I agree with my brothers in Christ (Fr Serge, AMM, and others) for a preference of the Julian calendar. and in turn you castigate me. Why must you be so angry?
Recluse,

I believe Deacon Anthony is looking for some intellectual discussion on this topic, while all you're doing here is cheering for "your team." This is a strictly emotional response.


All,

This is why I'm posing the question: why is this such an emotional subject?


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Can't say I ever understood it either. Seems as from a common sense point of view, Easter should always come after Passover (I'm Byzantine Catholic).

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...and additionally, I think Catholics should celebrate Passover as well.

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Originally Posted by stormshadow
Can't say I ever understood it either. Seems as from a common sense point of view, Easter should always come after Passover (I'm Byzantine Catholic).

The criteria set forth by the Council of Nicaea assured that the celebration of Pascha would always come after the time when Passover should have taken place, regardless of when the Jewish authorities indicated they would celebrate it.

HOWEVER, that is not the subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by stormshadow
...and additionally, I think Catholics should celebrate Passover as well.


And this is another subject entirely!

Stormshadow, you are free to start as many new threads as you like, but it is a discourtesy to jump into a thread and change the subject right off the bat!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by stormshadow
Can't say I ever understood it either. Seems as from a common sense point of view, Easter should always come after Passover (I'm Byzantine Catholic).

The criteria set forth by the Council of Nicaea assured that the celebration of Pascha would always come after the time when Passover should have taken place, regardless of when the Jewish authorities indicated they would celebrate it.

HOWEVER, that is not the subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by stormshadow
...and additionally, I think Catholics should celebrate Passover as well.


And this is another subject entirely!

Stormshadow, you are free to start as many new threads as you like, but it is a discourtesy to jump into a thread and change the subject right off the bat!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Agreed, let us stick to the topic and questions asked in the initial post. The two comments posted above this one I am quoting are already off-topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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The reasons for the strong emotional dimension to such a discussion would include these considerations:

a) most people who are religious in the first place have an emotional investment, so to speak, in matters which are directly related to their own religious experience, and do not appreciate what they perceive to be efforts to deprive them of elements of that experience which they consider to be important;

b) the Julian Calendar is felt to be an important component of the religious identity of those who maintain it;

c) those who follow the Gregorian Calendar are likely to feel that the very existence of communities and individuals who maintain the Julian Calendar are a constant reproach to the Gregorian Calendar and those who use it.

Will that do for a starter?

Fr. Serge

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Fr. Serge,

Thanks a lot, your comments are spot on.

In light of comment a), comment c) is starting to make sense:

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
c) those who follow the Gregorian Calendar are likely to feel that the very existence of communities and individuals who maintain the Julian Calendar are a constant reproach to the Gregorian Calendar and those who use it.

I'm not so sure "reproach" is the right word, but I will certainly admit that the Latin / Scholastic mentality tends to abhor anything that to them smacks of subjectivism or obscurantism. People having such a mindset have a tendency to get almost fanatical when confronted with the seemingly irrational situation of people clinging so staunchly to something that in their mind has clearly outlived its usefulness.

I really think this goes a lot deeper than the calendar issue, though. Certainly the notion of authority comes to mind, and the deep-seated notion that 'anyone having the audacity to call himself a Christian and yet dare to flout the authority of those whom God has placed over him ...' (you get the idea). This notion has been used to justify all sorts of un-Godly coercive behavior--done in God's name--over the centuries.

All of this stands in stark contrast to Our Lord's own plan for His Church, as elaborated in Mt.23:10-12:
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Do not be called 'Master'; you have but one master, the Messiah. The greatest among you must be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mk.10:42-44:
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Jesus summoned them and said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you will be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you will be the slave of all.

and Jn.13:12-15:
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So when he had washed their feet (and) put his garments back on and reclined at table again, he said to them, "Do you realize what I have done for you? You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am. If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet. I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.



Peace,
Deacon Richard

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FWIW, there are a good number of us who never or seldom broach the subject for the simple reason that with (or without) idealogical prejudice, we just aren't bothered by there being different reckonings and different expressions.

For my part, I realize that being a Catholic or just a Christian in general takes on a multitude of "flavors"... I just accept as acceptable that different Christians of sincere faith use different means of calculating holidays, and I don't worry about it. Sometimes I even think it is rather cool.

What is more, for all the times Pascha doesn't coincide, we are given the opportunity to quietly visit Orthodox parishes to venerate Christ in the Tomb on the Good Friday vigil and pray together. Hopefully, my pastor and I will be able to do just that this year for the 10-ish parishes in our city.

Maybe I am in the extreme minority, but I just accept "some do X, others do Y, and God be praised we aren't all doing Z!" It just does not bother some of us.

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Maybe I am in the extreme minority, but I just accept "some do X, others do Y, and God be praised we aren't all doing Z!" It just does not bother some of us.


Exactly. As for the calendar issue being an emotional subject, I don't care about it. It's important to someone, but not important to me at all.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Maybe I am in the extreme minority, but I just accept "some do X, others do Y, and God be praised we aren't all doing Z!" It just does not bother some of us.

Exactly. As for the calendar issue being an emotional subject, I don't care about it. It's important to someone, but not important to me at all.
Guys,

I don't have any problem with this, but I want to emphasize the importance of recognizing the fact that some people feel differently.

The secular humanists seem to have co-opted the idea of "sensitivity" (although they often misunderstand it's meaning, which is related to divine charity), and this has caused some within the Church to conclude that the whole notion is a fallacy.

Fr. Serge's words are worth repeating:
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
most people who are religious in the first place have an emotional investment, so to speak, in matters which are directly related to their own religious experience

This experiential dimension is important, especially since the West disparaged it for so long in favor of "objectivity."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Father Deacon Richard, aka Epiphanius, writes that
Quote
this goes a lot deeper than the calendar issue


To return his compliment to me, this is spot on! Experience in many places has confirmed the conviction that changing the calendar will only open the door to the next demand . . . and the next . . . and the next . . . It's like plucking one feather from a live dove. The dove will squawk, and go on about its business. But pluck away enough feathers, one by one, and the dove will die.

Fr. Serge


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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Maybe I am in the extreme minority, but I just accept "some do X, others do Y, and God be praised we aren't all doing Z!" It just does not bother some of us.

Exactly. As for the calendar issue being an emotional subject, I don't care about it. It's important to someone, but not important to me at all.
Guys,

I don't have any problem with this, but I want to emphasize the importance of recognizing the fact that some people feel differently.


I know and know of people with passions on this matter. I just wanted to register that a lot of us really have no problems with the diversity as is.

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Calendar issues have been present in the Church from the beginning... Look at the timing of the Passover in the Gospels, this is noted by Pope Benedict XVI in his homily for the Mass of the Lord's Supper, 2007:


Quote
There is an apparent discrepancy in the Evangelists' accounts, between John's Gospel on the one hand, and what on the other Mathew, Mark and Luke tell us.

According to John, Jesus died on the Cross at the very moment when the Passover lambs were being sacrificed in the temple. The death of Jesus and the sacrifice of the lambs coincided.However, this means that he must have died the day before Easter and could not, therefore, have celebrated the Passover meal in person - this, at any rate, is how it appears.

According to the three Synoptic Gospels, the Last Supper of Jesus was instead a Passover meal into whose traditional form he integrated the innovation of the gift of his Body and Blood.

This contradiction seemed unsolvable until a few years ago. The majority of exegetes were of the opinion that John was reluctant to tell us the true historical date of Jesus' death, but rather chose a symbolic date to highlight the deeper truth: Jesus is the new, true Lamb who poured out his Blood for us all.

In the meantime, the discovery of the [Dead Sea] Scrolls at Qumran has led us to a possible and convincing solution which, although it is not yet accepted by everyone, is a highly plausible hypothesis. We can now say that John's account is historically precise.

Jesus truly shed his blood on the eve of Easter at the time of the immolation of the lambs. In all likelihood, however, he celebrated the Passover with his disciples in accordance with the Qumran calendar, hence, at least one day earlier; he celebrated it without a lamb, like the Qumran community which did not recognize Herod's temple and was waiting for the new temple.

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c) those who follow the Gregorian Calendar are likely to feel that the very existence of communities and individuals who maintain the Julian Calendar are a constant reproach to the Gregorian Calendar and those who use it.


I disagree entirely. Most Latins I know (and who know about the subject) couldn't care less. In fact there are some of us who actually enjoy the two different Easters (when they happen) so we can actually attend both Roman & Byzantine Rite Easter Vigils.

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Originally Posted by Byzantophile
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c) those who follow the Gregorian Calendar are likely to feel that the very existence of communities and individuals who maintain the Julian Calendar are a constant reproach to the Gregorian Calendar and those who use it.


I disagree entirely. Most Latins I know (and who know about the subject) couldn't care less. In fact there are some of us who actually enjoy the two different Easters (when they happen) so we can actually attend both Roman & Byzantine Rite Easter Vigils.


I am in the same boat with you on this one...

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