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Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28619
05/25/04 11:18 PM
05/25/04 11:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,900
USA
Alice Offline OP
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ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW I AND MELKITE PATRIARCH GREGORY III ADDRESS CATHOLIC-ORTHODOX MEETING


Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew addresses the participants of the Orientale Lumen EuroEast I Conference while Melkite Patriarch Gregory listens. The participants of the Orientale Lumen EuroEast I Conference gather with the patriarchs and other hierarchs (front row) from many Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Contact: Mr. Jack Figel, Chairman
Orientale Lumen Conferences
PO Box 192, Fairfax, VA, 22030 USA
Phone: 1-703-691-8862; Fax: 1-703-691-0513
Email: info@olconference.com
Website: www.olconference.com

Istanbul, Turkey [Constantinople] May 14, 2004 --

In the ancient city of Constantinople where East meets West, Eastern and Western Christians met from May 10th through the 14th. Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, Roman Catholics and other Christians gathered to discuss and learn about their respective traditions. They reflected on the common ground that unites and the differences that still separate the "sister Churches."

The Orientale Lumen EuroEast I Conference provided a milieu of love and understanding on the theme of "Liturgy as a Foundation for Dialogue."

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople, warmly greeted participants and addressed the gathering. "We firmly believe that this is a noble and necessary endeavor, which serves the cause of reconciliation and unity," said the Orthodox spiritual leader.

Reflecting with deep emotion on his own experience of the separation of Catholics and Orthodox, Patriarch Gregory III of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church said in his presentation that the Orthodox in his liturgies are paradoxically "always present yet always absent."

Archbishop Vsevolod of Scopelos began his talk saying, "We are on the threshold of unity" referring to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. When asked in the following discussion for specific details of what he meant, the Archbishop simply said, "because we are here!" Archbishop Vsevolod is of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA.

Others speakers were Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Emmanuel of France, Greek Orthodox Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia, Archimandrite Robert Taft, S.J., of the Pontifical Oriental Institute, and Father Raymond Collins, Professor of Sacred Scripture of The Catholic University of America. The conference moderator was the Reverend Dr. Robert Gribben, Professor of Worship and Mission, Ormond College, University of Melbourne, Australia.

Participants in this scholarly conference for laity, religious and clergy also prayed together in range of services, attended Catholic and Orthodox Divine Liturgies, toured churches of the city and the Ecumenical Patriarchate Cathedral of Saint George and complex. On May 11th the conference was held at the Halki Theological Seminary on one of the Prince's Islands in the Sea of Marmara.

A similar conference called Orientale Lumen VIII will be held June 21 through June 24 at the John Paul II Cultural Center in Washington, DC. Further information can be found at www.olconference.com or by calling 1-703-691-8862.

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28620
05/26/04 10:07 PM
05/26/04 10:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Alice Offline OP
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Don't all of you think that this is wonderful news?

I do! smile

Alice

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28621
05/29/04 10:38 PM
05/29/04 10:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Yes, Alice, it's very uplifting. Thanks for sharing it with us. God bless you.

Logos Teen

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28622
05/30/04 08:59 PM
05/30/04 08:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Virginia
a still, small voice Offline
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Yes, Alice,

I do think this is a wonderful occasion for celebration. I was looking at the website for the Orientale Lumen conference in Washington in June. The topic for the speakers is to defend what their "Bottom Line" for Christian unity is. I can't help but wonder if the speakers invited come with any sort of authoritative voice. But I will certainly be anxious to hear about the various "bottom line" scenarios, whether presented authoritatively or not. As has been stated by many on this forum in the past, I do believe that unity will come about as a grassroots movement, so that means that WE are the facilitators! Doesn't that make us all thrilled to be here!

I have also noticed that to some on this forum "ecumenism" is a dirty word. But when I reflect that our Lord's final prayers were that His Church would be one, I have to be excited to think that we could be on the verge of this reality. May we live to see it happen! Sometimes the possibility seems remote, but so did the Resurrection for the apostles.

Holy Spirit, at this Pentecost, we pray for your blessing of wisdom and courage, that our unity might be sealed and guarded for the Glory of God. May our unity come forth from humility and obedience to all that is true. Help us to recognize this in one another. Amen.

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28623
05/30/04 09:16 PM
05/30/04 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,900
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Alice Offline OP
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Alice  Offline OP
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Dear Tammy,

I join in to your beautiful prayer for unity with a hearty AMEN!

Thank you for your uplifting and edifying contributions to this forum!

With love in Christ,
Alice

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28624
05/30/04 09:38 PM
05/30/04 09:38 PM
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Posts: 395
S. California
ByzantineAscetic Offline
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Quote
They reflected on the common ground that unites and the differences that still separate the "sister Churches."
Quote
Don't all of you think that this is wonderful news?
I think its horriable and very saddening that he embraces all 'christian' denominations as "sister churches" yet pursecutes his own Orthodox and declares them schismatic, for holding on to Traditional Orthodoxy. i.e. Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou.

In Christ
Nektarios

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28625
05/30/04 09:50 PM
05/30/04 09:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Alice Offline OP
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Dear Nektarios,

I don't think that my jurisdiction's (Ecumenical) Patriarch, Bartholomew is persecuting Esphigmenou for being 'traditional'. Traditional Orthodoxy is very beautiful, and I know that His Holiness loves it and practices it, and I also know that he is very supportive of monasticism.

On the other hand, Esphigmenou does not commemorate him, does not accept the lifting of the 'anathemas', marches in the streets calling the Pope horrendous epithets (I do NOT want to repeat here as not to scandalize the hearts and peace of soul of my Catholic brethren), and is disobedient. frown

As a loving Bishop,perhaps His Holiness feels that he needed to put his foot down? I know that some Orthodox may not agree with me on this matter, but how else can His Holiness continue on the God inspired, blessed path he is following towards the goal of unity of CHRIST's Body, the Most Holy Church, if he allows the antics of Esphigmenou to go unpunished and unbridled?

I love the Holy Mountain, Mt. Athos a great deal, and am a great supporter of Holy traditional Monasticism, but I think that Esphigmenou's antics are just plain sinful and prideful. We should not forget that the great commission of all monasticism is obedience (ipakoui) and humility.

I do humbly request, once again, that you address the person you are speaking to. It is a sign of respect towards the other...and that is something which is VERY traditional Orthodox. smile

In Christ,
Alice

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28626
05/30/04 11:37 PM
05/30/04 11:37 PM
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Pittsburgh, PA
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Bill from Pgh
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Dear Alice,
Indeed this is good news! Any dialogue between Churches which promotes goodwill and better understanding should should be welcomed by ALL Christians. I do not ask any particular church to compromise its belief or tradition by participating in such a dialogue. We as Christians will never overcome the obstacles that separate us by not confronting them. ONLY by such dialogue can the Body of Christ ever be united as one.

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28627
05/31/04 12:13 AM
05/31/04 12:13 AM
Joined: May 2002
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S. California
ByzantineAscetic Offline
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Quote
I know that His Holiness loves it and practices it
The EP does not practice Traditionalist Orthodoxy what so ever. He does persecute the Monastery of Esphigmenou. He has sent police to block the roads to the monastery so they can not recieve basic living supplies.

They stoped commemerating the EP because of his uncanonical activity with the Latins. A Traditionalist, would never call the Latins "Sister Churches", A Traditionalist would never go and pray with a Latin, or a jew or buddhist.

Quote

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."/QUOTE]

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."
He has no regard for the Holy Traditions of the Orthodox Church, as you can see how many times he has broken the canons of the apostels, but he will go to the ends of the earth for full union with Heretics and Schimatics.

So in that I have to say no he does not what so ever practice "Traditional" Orthodoxy.

[img]http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/10.jp[/img]

As you can see in the picture there is a police car at the front of the monastery of Esphigmenou.

Another thing he is willing to sacarifce Orthodox to union with thouse in heresy. He is trying to kick the monks of Esphigmenou out of the monastery, who some have been there in their intire life and have no other place to go and he does not persuecute them?

[IMG]
http://www.kat.gr/kat/history/Txt/El/Byz/Images/100YrOldMonk.jpg[/IMG]

A Orthodox Monk at Esphigmenou who is over 100 years old with no other home besides the monastery. He wants to evict monk and through him out in the street because they protest his practice in heresy?


Now how again does he love monasticism and support and practice Tradtionalist Orthodoxy?
He doesnt and thats cold hard facts.

In Christ
Nektarios

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28628
05/31/04 12:18 AM
05/31/04 12:18 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 395
S. California
ByzantineAscetic Offline
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Quote
I know that His Holiness loves it and practices it
The EP does not practice Traditionalist Orthodoxy what so ever. He does persecute the Monastery of Esphigmenou. He has sent police to block the roads to the monastery so they can not recieve basic living supplies.

They stoped commemerating the EP because of his uncanonical activity with the Latins. A Traditionalist, would never call the Latins "Sister Churches", A Traditionalist would never go and pray with a Latin, or a jew or buddhist.

Quote

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."
He has no regard for the Holy Traditions of the Orthodox Church, as you can see how many times he has broken the canons of the apostels, but he will go to the ends of the earth for full union with Heretics and Schimatics.

So in that I have to say no he does not what so ever practice "Traditional" Orthodoxy.

As you can see in the picture there is a police car at the front of the monastery of Esphigmenou.

Another thing he is willing to sacarifce Orthodox to union with thouse in heresy. He is trying to kick the monks of Esphigmenou out of the monastery, who some have been there in their entire life and have no other place to go and he does not persuecute them?

http://www.kat.gr/kat/history/Txt/El/Byz/Images/100YrOldMonk.jpg

A Orthodox Monk at Esphigmenou who is over 100 years old with no other home besides the monastery. He wants to evict monk and through him out in the street because they protest his practice in heresy?

Now how again does he love monasticism and support and practice Tradtionalist Orthodoxy?
He doesnt and thats cold hard facts.

In Christ
Nektarios

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28629
05/31/04 11:48 AM
05/31/04 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,900
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Alice Offline OP
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Dear Nektarios,

(You forgot to address me by name again! frown )

Esphigmenou has obviously conducted a brilliant campaign to not only win sympathy, but also against the E.P. I have seen the letters they sent to Orthodox communities, and the websites.

I am not impressed by their hyper-emotionalism and by their divisive intentions. Their obsessive hatred against the Latins (and now the Ecumenical Patriarch) is what is really, really sad. They are disobedient, and that is not monastic.

The deal was, 'shape up or ship out'. They decided to continue not commemorating the E.P. THAT is why they were evicted. In a hierarchal church, religious communities are supposed to listen to their bishop, are they not? If not, then we are no better or different than Methodists.

What Esphigmenou doesn't realize is that their shameful and scandalous antics of passionate emotionalism and hatred against the Pope were seen on world wide television. In my opinion, they shamed Orthodoxy, PERIOD!

Perhaps their hyper-emotionalism and child like defiance would do good to take a vow of silence in order to find the peace that surpasses all, in their hearts? Maybe then they would be able to come to a peaceful understanding with their Bishop, the Ecumenical Patriarch?

BTW: (Don't worry about the old monk, other monasteries have taken him and others like him in).

Nektarios, I was having a discussion w/my priest just a few weeks ago about the differences between 'traditionalist' and 'fundamentalist'. A traditionalist upholds traditions and does not succumb to modernism. A 'fundamentalist' sees everything in black and white, is intolerant of others or any other view points, follows the LETTER OF THE LAW, rather than the SPIRIT, and generally comes across as hateful.

Esphigmenou, in my opinion, and the opinion of many, traditionalist and otherwise, is more 'fundamentalist'.

Ofcourse, fundamentalists exist in many Christian denominations, cults and world religions. In an extreme example, haven't we seen the danger of such a mentality with the 'jihad' mentality of fundamentalist Islam?

In my opinion, Orthodox fundamentalists that behave publicly like Esphigmenou, hijack the basic intrinsic message of our Christ...that of love, forgiveness and peace.

We will have to agree to disagree on this matter, Nektarios.

I like you but will not discourse with you anymore until you start according me the respect of addressing me by name. As I said before, a real 'traditionalist' Orthodox will not only address another by name to show honor and respect, but will even bow to the Christ in the other.

In Christ's love,
Alice

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28630
05/31/04 12:45 PM
05/31/04 12:45 PM
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Posts: 1,252
New Mexico USA
paromer Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by alice:
Don't all of you think that this is wonderful news?

I do! smile

Alice
Dear Alice,

This is wonderful news!

All,

Orthodox Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. If one is united to Christ by faith and baptism, one is a member of Christ's body, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

There are no Orthodox or Catholic churches in heaven, our true home.

Holy Mother of God, pray for the unity of all Christians.

Christ is our peace.

Paul

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28631
05/31/04 12:48 PM
05/31/04 12:48 PM
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Uppsala, Sweden
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Scandinavian Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ByzantineAscetic:
The EP does not practice Traditionalist Orthodoxy what so ever.
But the Antiochians do??!

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Christian

PS: The monasteries Elder Epraim has founded in America are in the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and they are very traditional.

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28632
05/31/04 12:58 PM
05/31/04 12:58 PM
Joined: May 2002
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S. California
ByzantineAscetic Offline
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Elder Epraim is not the EP.

In Christ
Nektarios

Re: Orientale Lumen/Catholic-Orthodox Meeting #28633
05/31/04 01:11 PM
05/31/04 01:11 PM
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S. California
ByzantineAscetic Offline
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Dear: Alice

Quote
The deal was, 'shape up or ship out'.
Like the EP has room to talk on that one.

Quote
They decided to continue not commemorating the E.P. THAT is why they were evicted.
All of Athos didnt commeorate the EP during the 20's. Starting with Meletios.

Quote
If not, then we are no better or different than Methodists.
The EP is going to the ends of the earth to reunite with these "SISTER CHURCHES" who you name.

Quote
hatred against the Pope
They dont hate the pope personalley they hate the Catholic heresies.

Quote
BTW: (Don't worry about the old monk, other monasteries have taken him and others like him in).
No other monasteries will not take monks like this in. The EP declared them schismatic and schismatics are not allowed to live on Athos.
So he is getting kicked off the island. All the 117 Monks will be unless they recant.

Quote
follows the LETTER OF THE LAW, rather than the SPIRIT
Thats where ecumenism and modernism came from, ignore the Canons or Laws of the Church which the EP has done so much.


Quote
Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."
So I guess the EP is like the Pope in your opinion and is above the Canons and can ignore and change them when ever he pleases at his own convenience? It amazes me how do you rationlze your beliefs when the canons and the holy fathers of the church like St. Mark of Ephesus, had the total oposite opinion? Arnt we supposed to hold the same faith? How can we be "Sister Churches" and the "Sepereated Lung" I didnt realize Christ Church could be torn in two.

In Christ
Nektarios

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