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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel
Also, I hope no deacon is driving for a few hours after doing the ablutions on that chalice!

These ecclesiastical extravaganzas tend to have a small army of deacons, so I believe that there are plenty deacons to consume the Holy Gifts and purify the Chalices.

By the way, I heard that Clergy in Russia aren't permitted to drive. Too many automotive fatalities with crazy Russian drivers. The holy canons forbid a clergyman to serve if he has caused a death.

Fr David Straut (who only occasionaly is given a driver and usually has to take risks)


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"Archpriestly girth" is actually an expression in Russian! Haven't heard it in years, but you've brought back memories - Christ is Risen!

Fr. Serge

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Dear Fr Serge,

Truly, He is risen!

I hope that you have had a joyful Pascha and Bright Week.

Fr David

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Hello all....

I don't know if this is off topic or not, but considering some folks talking about Chalice(s) being placed on the Holy Table as "one chalice".

I have seen in some Orthodox Churches that have only ONE chalice on the Holy Table and the rest of them on the Prothesis Table and when it comes to time for Communion, the priests would go over there and bring the rest of the Chalices to the Holy Table. I have not seen any pourings from the Chalice that's already on the Holy Table, so it is as if the other Chalices are already prepared before, and apparently it was consecrated at the same time as the one Chalice already on the Holy Table?

Does what I'm saying make senses?

Anyway...has anyone seen anything like that and if so or not, what are your thoughts on that.

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

spdundas #287997 05/04/08 05:36 PM
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The Secret Squirrel has good points. We all know if they did use a blessed chain saw it would be made by John Deere.

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Does John Deere actually produce anything as small as a chain saw ?

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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Does John Deere actually produce anything as small as a chain saw ?


Yep. http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/HO/series/ho_chain_saws_series.html

Etnick #288000 05/04/08 06:53 PM
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Oh Deere! biggrin

SPDundas
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WOW - I always associated them with HUGE Agricultural machnery which towered over our car and caravan

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Deere Folks,

What do you think of my question above?

SPDundas
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spdundas #288021 05/05/08 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by spdundas
Hello all....

I don't know if this is off topic or not, but considering some folks talking about Chalice(s) being placed on the Holy Table as "one chalice".

I have seen in some Orthodox Churches that have only ONE chalice on the Holy Table and the rest of them on the Prothesis Table and when it comes to time for Communion, the priests would go over there and bring the rest of the Chalices to the Holy Table. I have not seen any pourings from the Chalice that's already on the Holy Table, so it is as if the other Chalices are already prepared before, and apparently it was consecrated at the same time as the one Chalice already on the Holy Table?

Does what I'm saying make senses?

Anyway...has anyone seen anything like that and if so or not, what are your thoughts on that.

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

I'm pretty sure no Orthodox would consider the contents of Chalices left on the Prothesis Table during the Anaphora consecrated as the Blood of Christ.

In Antiochian (and I assume Greek) churches Chalices containing unconsecrated wine are sometinmes brought to the Holy Table before the people's Communion and a small amount of the Consecrated Wine (i.e. the Blood of Christ) is added to the unconsecrated wine in each of the Chalices. The way I've seen this done is pouring the Blood of Christ directly from the main Chalice into each of the unconsecrated Chalices -without the use of the special ladle the Russians use - and this is considered to consecrate the entire contents of these extra Chalices into the Blood of Christ. Also a portion of the Lamb is placed into each of these extra Chalices at the fraction.

Fr David Straut


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Fr. Straut,

You are right on target on guessing it was Antiochian that I was referring about...I forgot to mention which Church.

That's very interesting concept...hmmm. Thanks for your explanation.

SPDundas
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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Dear SPDundas,

I'm pretty sure no Orthodox would consider the contents of Chalices left on the Prothesis Table during the Anaphora consecrated as the Blood of Christ.

In Antiochian (and I assume Greek) churches Chalices containing unconsecrated wine are sometinmes brought to the Holy Table before the people's Communion and a small amount of the Consecrated Wine (i.e. the Blood of Christ) is added to the unconsecrated wine in each of the Chalices. The way I've seen this done is pouring the Blood of Christ directly from the main Chalice into each of the unconsecrated Chalices -without the use of the special ladle the Russians use - and this is considered to consecrate the entire contents of these extra Chalices into the Blood of Christ. Also a portion of the Lamb is placed into each of these extra Chalices at the fraction.

Fr David Straut



Interesting. This was also practiced in the Western Rites until medieval times.

In the original 1570 Roman Missal down to the eighteenth century, there was a rubric which stated that, after receiving holy communion, the faithful are to drink unconsecrated wine. While this is not the same as drinking wine admixtured with a little of the Blood, I can see a linear succession between both practices.

Amazing how, at one time, the Eastern and Western rites were so much more similar than they are now.

Mykhayl #288074 05/05/08 03:53 PM
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Mikhaylo asks:
Quote
What to use for the air (vale)? The Good Friday plachanytcha (shroud)?


Apart from mis-spellings, this question is not foolish. It seems that the Shroud (Epitaphios, Plashchanytsia, or whichever language you like) evolved from the Aer, and relatively recently at that.

(that's "Serge recent," you understand!).

Fr. Serge


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I'll confirm that the practice Fr. David mentions--the pouring of a small amount of the Precious Blood into a chalice of unconsecrated wine and water--is done in Greek churches as well.

If I remember correctly, this was also done at the consecration of Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow, at least as far as I could tell from the video. So, it may be done in other Orthodox countries as well in extraordinary circumstances.

Many in the Orthodox world ascribe to the idea of "contact consecration" when it comes to liquids: that a small amount of the Precious Blood, or holy water, or holy oil, can consecrate a larger amount of the same liquid (wine, water and oil, respectively). This is why clergy of this "Greek" school of throught will consider the wine at the Presanctified Liturgy to be the Blood of Christ (although some may contend that the Lamb is actually what consecrates the chalice, and not the small amount of the Precious Blood that is *on* the Lamb). Most Slav clergy view the wine at Presanctified Liturgy as the *means* for distributing the Lamb, but not as being consecrated.

Dave

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