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#288172 - 05/07/08 01:20 AM Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 1514
Loc: Chicago
Anglicans must choose between Protestantism and tradition, says Vatican
The Catholic Herald
By Anna Arco
6 May 2008

The Vatican has said that the time has come for the Anglican Church to choose between Protestantism and the ancient churches of Rome and Orthodoxy.

Speaking on the day that the Archbishop of Canterbury met Benedict XVI in Rome, Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Pontifical Council of Christian Unity, said it was time for Anglicanism to "clarify its identity".

He told the Catholic Herald: "Ultimately, it is a question of the identity of the Anglican Church. Where does it belong?

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century? At the moment it is somewhere in between, but it must clarify its identity now and that will not be possible without certain difficult decisions."

He said he hoped that the Lambeth conference, an event which brings the worldwide Anglican Communion together every 10 years, would be the deciding moment for Anglicanism.

Cardinal Kasper, who has been asked to speak at the Lambeth Conference by the Archbishop of Canterbury, said: "We hope that certain fundamental questions will be clarified at the conference so that dialogue will be possible.

"We shall work and pray that it is possible, but I think that it is not sustainable to keep pushing decision-making back because it only extends the crisis."

His comments will be interpreted as an attempt by Rome to put pressure on the Church of England not to proceed with the ordination women bishops or to sanction gay partnerships, both serious obstacles to unity.

They have come at an extremely sensitive time for the Anglican Communion, as cracks between different factions in the church are beginning to show ahead of the conference in July.

Dr Rowan Williams faces rebellion from conservative and liberal Anglicans over homosexuality and women bishops.

The Rt Rev Gene Robinson, the Anglican bishop of New Hampshire, whose attempts to enter into a civil union with his gay partner have angered conservative Anglicans, plans to attend the public events of the conference despite the fact that he has not been invited by Dr Williams.

On the other side of the spectrum, rebel conservative bishops, headed by Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, dismayed by the Archbishop of Canterbury's refusal to condemn homosexuality outright, plan a rival conference in the Holy Land in June.

Ecumenical dialogue between Rome and the Anglican Communion ground to a halt in 2006. Cardinal Kasper said at the time that a decision by the Church of England to consecrate women bishops would lead to "a serious and long lasting chill".

But last month the Church of England's Legislative Drafting Group published a report preparing the ground for women bishops, who are already ordained in several Anglican provinces.

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#288182 - 05/07/08 06:57 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Michael_Thoma]
ebed melech Online   happy
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 4621
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
 Originally Posted By: Michael_Thoma
Anglicans must choose between Protestantism and tradition, says Vatican
The Catholic Herald
By Anna Arco
6 May 2008

The Vatican has said that the time has come for the Anglican Church to choose between Protestantism and the ancient churches of Rome and Orthodoxy.

Speaking on the day that the Archbishop of Canterbury met Benedict XVI in Rome, Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Pontifical Council of Christian Unity, said it was time for Anglicanism to "clarify its identity".

He told the Catholic Herald: "Ultimately, it is a question of the identity of the Anglican Church. Where does it belong?

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century? At the moment it is somewhere in between, but it must clarify its identity now and that will not be possible without certain difficult decisions."

He said he hoped that the Lambeth conference, an event which brings the worldwide Anglican Communion together every 10 years, would be the deciding moment for Anglicanism.

Cardinal Kasper, who has been asked to speak at the Lambeth Conference by the Archbishop of Canterbury, said: "We hope that certain fundamental questions will be clarified at the conference so that dialogue will be possible.

"We shall work and pray that it is possible, but I think that it is not sustainable to keep pushing decision-making back because it only extends the crisis."

His comments will be interpreted as an attempt by Rome to put pressure on the Church of England not to proceed with the ordination women bishops or to sanction gay partnerships, both serious obstacles to unity.

They have come at an extremely sensitive time for the Anglican Communion, as cracks between different factions in the church are beginning to show ahead of the conference in July.

Dr Rowan Williams faces rebellion from conservative and liberal Anglicans over homosexuality and women bishops.

The Rt Rev Gene Robinson, the Anglican bishop of New Hampshire, whose attempts to enter into a civil union with his gay partner have angered conservative Anglicans, plans to attend the public events of the conference despite the fact that he has not been invited by Dr Williams.

On the other side of the spectrum, rebel conservative bishops, headed by Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, dismayed by the Archbishop of Canterbury's refusal to condemn homosexuality outright, plan a rival conference in the Holy Land in June.

Ecumenical dialogue between Rome and the Anglican Communion ground to a halt in 2006. Cardinal Kasper said at the time that a decision by the Church of England to consecrate women bishops would lead to "a serious and long lasting chill".

But last month the Church of England's Legislative Drafting Group published a report preparing the ground for women bishops, who are already ordained in several Anglican provinces.


Yes...it's about time!

Let us pray for our Anglican brothers and sisters, as well as the upcoming Lambeth Conference. Let us hope they decide for Apostolic Christianity!

Gordo

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#288186 - 05/07/08 08:10 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: ebed melech]
francis Online   content
Member

Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Maryland
As much as I hate being a cynic, I have to say that Cardinal Kasper must have missed the past 40 years. The Anglican Church has already made a choice, and unfortunately, it is not apostolic Christianity.

I believe the real choice is with the few outstanding bishops and parishes left in the Anglican Communion: do they stay within what is now a Protestant body, or do they rejoin the apostolic Church, either in the East or the West?

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#288188 - 05/07/08 08:47 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Michael_Thoma]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 341
Loc: New Jersey, United States
I would respectfully say that the issue of the priestly and episcopal ordination of women decided this whole matter back in the 1970's. If the Anglican Communion has even one constituent member church which ordains women to their 'priesthood' (let alone their 'episcopate') then the Anglican Communion has made its decision to firmly align itself with Protestant Christianity rather than the Apostolic Churches.

Many people get quite upset about homosexual ordination. While this issue is indeed very grave, an indication that Holy Scripture is no longer a guiding light to Anglicanism, the fact that some Anglicans ordain practising homosexuals to their 'priesthood' is no where near as grave a matter as priestesses. Anyone who doubts this must simply look at Church history, which is full of examples of fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites being ordained to the priesthood and episcopate. Yet the sacraments these sinful men performed must not be questioned. Personal unworthiness has no bearing upon the validity of the Church's Mysteries (Sacraments). It is possible (though morally reprehensible) for a man practising sexual immorality to be ordained to the priesthood and validly celebrate the Church's Mysteries. It is, however, quite impossible to ordain priestesses. Those who attempt it fail from the start. As the Latin Church would say: women are invalid matter for ordination to the presbyterate and episcopate.

Oh dear. Now I've done it.

Fr David Straut

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#288189 - 05/07/08 09:01 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Fr David Straut]
Michael McD Offline
Member

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 575
Loc: Holmdel, NJ, USA
 Quote:
Oh dear. Now I've done it.

Fr David Straut


Yes, you have, Father. Very succinctly, very accurately. Thank you. \:\)

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#288191 - 05/07/08 09:03 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Fr David Straut]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 341
Loc: New Jersey, United States

Quo Vadis, Anglican Communion?

Fr David Straut

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#288192 - 05/07/08 09:40 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Fr David Straut]
ebed melech Online   happy
Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 4621
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
 Originally Posted By: Fr David Straut

Quo Vadis, Anglican Communion?

Fr David Straut



Talk about cognitive dissonance!

Gordo

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#288193 - 05/07/08 09:59 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Fr David Straut]
Mykhayl Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 485
Loc: Pgh, PA USA
X. B!
C. I. X!
Are these problem of theirs or of our unwillingness to face modernization including openly promoting women to the minor orders up to sub deacon or even deacon (Saint Olympia)? Is it homosexuality or as our martyr Father Jan Hus said give a tandem choice of either married clergy or a monastic (and totally celibate) one, but no more independent playboys?

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#288196 - 05/07/08 10:25 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Mykhayl]
domilsean Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Pittsburgh
But Father David, they ARE really nice vestments.

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#288197 - 05/07/08 10:32 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Mykhayl]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 341
Loc: New Jersey, United States
 Originally Posted By: Mykhayl
X. B!
C. I. X!
Are these problem of theirs or of our unwillingness to face modernization including openly promoting women to the minor orders up to sub deacon or even deacon (Saint Olympia)? Is it homosexuality or as our martyr Father Jan Hus said give a tandem choice of either married clergy or a monastic (and totally celibate) one, but no more independent playboys?

Truly, He is risen!

As usual, Mykhayl, you leave me speechless.

Fr David

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#288198 - 05/07/08 10:34 AM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: domilsean]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 341
Loc: New Jersey, United States
 Originally Posted By: domilsean
But Father David, they ARE really nice vestments.

If you're a black and white kinda guy, or - uh - gal.

Fr David+

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#288208 - 05/07/08 12:05 PM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Mykhayl]
theophan Moderator Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3077
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
 Quote:
. . . our unwillingness to face modernization . . .


Mykhayl:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Whatever gave you the idea that the Church needed "modernized"? I was always taught that we are called to receive the Faith from our teachers, live it fully and well by internalizing it and making it our own, and then passing it along to our children and successors without adding to it or leaving anything out. It is for us to learn why things are done the way they are and not be swayed by the winds of this present age. The Church has a 2000 year plus genius to back up what she teaches us as doctrine and how she puts that doctrine into practice. So why would we treat what we have received as if it were something that needed to be altered to fit the whims of the current age? That seems to cast aspersions on our teachers in the Faith.

It seems to me that there are any number of groups out there who have done this "modernizing" but who can no longer lay claim to being in the Apostolic Churches. And once outside that tried and sure path, how do we know any longer what we are to believe or how to put it into practice or how to interpret it, except by the whims of the next preacher who comes along?

 Quote:
. . . openly promoting women to the minor orders up to sub deacon or even deacon . . .


There have been plenty of discussions about this area and a few scholars have tackled it. There is the argument that women deaconesses were on the same plane as subdeacons. There are plenty of arguments about whether or not they served in the altar. Somehow the Church has let that office go until fairly recently. And when that happened or why it happened is still open to discussion. But to simply "promote" on the basis of the secular world's demands for equality between the sexes rather than for some legitimate need within the Church herself again betrays what the Church is supposed to be. The Church leavens the world, not the other way around.

In Christ,

BOB

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#288209 - 05/07/08 12:08 PM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: theophan]
Terry Bohannon Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 1593
Loc: Houston, TX USA
With this unwillingness to face modernization, perhaps Christ needs to be transformed by us.

Terry

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#288213 - 05/07/08 01:35 PM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: Terry Bohannon]
domilsean Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Pittsburgh
Fr. David, it looks like blue to me.

Theophan, I agree. And extra points for the Pittsburghese! (Whatever gave you the idea that the Church needed "modernized"?)

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#288231 - 05/07/08 04:11 PM Re: Vatican: Anglicans must choose - Protestantism or tradition [Re: domilsean]
Fr David Straut Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 341
Loc: New Jersey, United States
 Originally Posted By: domilsean
Fr. David, it looks like blue to me.

Perhaps I am colour blind, though I haven't noticed any problem distinguishing black from navy in the past. Hmmm.

Fr David

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