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This is the end result of the Reformation. Sola Fide means we just have to believe a few vague things and be able to quote a few scripture passages. Sola Scriptura means I can emphasize any scripture passage that might vaguely suopport my position or toss a book out if it contradicts my ideas. And private interpretation of scripture means the the Bible means whatever I want it to on any particular day and might mean something else next week if I decide I want to commit some extra sin.
I doubt that many conservative Anglicans will find the latin rite of the Catholic Church very attractive. Why leave the episcopal church to listen to sermons by elderly nuns in pantsuits and receive communion in the hand from immodestly dressed eucharistic ministresses with the priest reduced to a vague role as "President of the Assembly."?

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This is the end result of the Reformation. Sola Fide means we just have to believe a few vague things and be able to quote a few scripture passages. Sola Scriptura means I can emphasize any scripture passage that might vaguely suopport my position or toss a book out if it contradicts my ideas. And private interpretation of scripture means the the Bible means whatever I want it to on any particular day and might mean something else next week if I decide I want to commit some extra sin.
I doubt that many conservative Anglicans will find the latin rite of the Catholic Church very attractive. Why leave the episcopal church to listen to sermons by elderly nuns in pantsuits and receive communion in the hand from immodestly dressed eucharistic ministresses with the priest reduced to a vague role as "President of the Assembly."?

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This is the liturgy Anglicans can expect when they decide to leave the Episcopal Church and enter the Catholic Church.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
Why would they bother?

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Don't expect any exodus from the PE "church" any time soon.
The people who are still in it have swallowed so much
**** to date that they can only be expected happily to
swallow more. I wonder what proportion of them are
ex-RC's eager to accept anything but the Gospel. So limiting,
you know,all that narrow morality.

It makes one think better of the traditional practice of
burning heretics.

We're just sinners, too, but at least we know it.

How difficult to address this matter without descending to
vulgarity, humm, well, actually, obscenity.

Seriously now,folks, we need to pray for this
booby-hatch.

Edmac

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That is a notably gray gathering

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Quote
This is the liturgy Anglicans can expect when they decide to leave the Episcopal Church and enter the Catholic Church.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
Why would they bother?


dwight:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

This is not the typical Liturgy of the Latin Catholic Church. We have been over this territory on this forum in the past. Just because there are people who profane the Liturgy it does not follow that this is the norm in the Latin Church. Did we see this type of thing when His Holiness, Pope Benedict was here in the United States and served the Liturgy?

I am a Moderator here and I not only take personal offense to your post and link but am issuing you a public warning about this type of inflammatory posting. If it continues or there is another such post, I will recommend to the administrators that your posting privileges be restricted for a period. This is strictly out of bounds for the Christian charity that characterizes this board.

In Christ,

BOB

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Originally Posted by theophan
Quote
This is the liturgy Anglicans can expect when they decide to leave the Episcopal Church and enter the Catholic Church.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
Why would they bother?


dwight:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

This is not the typical Liturgy of the Latin Catholic Church. We have been over this territory on this forum in the past. Just because there are people who profane the Liturgy it does not follow that this is the norm in the Latin Church. Did we see this type of thing when His Holiness, Pope Benedict was here in the United States and served the Liturgy?

I am a Moderator here and I not only take personal offense to your post and link but am issuing you a public warning about this type of inflammatory posting. If it continues or there is another such post, I will recommend to the administrators that your posting privileges be restricted for a period. This is strictly out of bounds for the Christian charity that characterizes this board.

In Christ,

BOB


Dear Moderator;

As somebody who has spent much of his very young life, and who has sacrificed much, fighting for the integrity of the liturgy in the Catholic bastion of Asia, I think I'm entitled to say something about this.

Liturgical abuse of the worst and sacrilegious kind is very prevalent in the Catholic Church, not just in the USA and western Europe, but everywhere, even in supposedly devout and conservative Catholic countries such as the Philippines. I am aware of even worse abuses in Latin America.

Are such abuses the norm? No. But the fact remains that a completely rubrical Novus Ordo Mass, celebrated according to the directives of the GIRM and celebrated according to the authentic mind and teaching of Vatican II, is rare as hen's teeth, much more rare than the Tridentine Latin Mass (which is why the "Reform of the Reform" has pretty much foundered). I can truthfully say, as a lifelong massgoer, that I can count in the fingers of my two hands the number of times when I've attended a Novus Ordo Mass that has no liturgical abuses.

It probably is easier to look for a High Church Anglican liturgy that is authentically Roman in feel and theology, than a Roman Catholic Mass (New Rite) that can be praised as such.

Here in the Philippines, if you want to recite the Nicene Creed at Mass, where do you go? Why, to the Episcopal Church and to its sister-church, the "Aglipayan" or Philippine Independent Church. In the Roman Catholic parishes in the Philippines, it is the Apostles Creed which is ALWAYS recited, so much so that the vast majority of Filipino Catholics don't know the Nicene Creed. (Remember that the Philippines has more Catholics than the entire United States, so you are talking of a lot of Catholics here.)

Every Sunday morning, the TV channels in my country are full of Sunday Masses on TV. Guess which Mass is the most reverent, hieratic and dignified? The Anglican Mass which is broadcast by one of the government channels. It is so reverent that many Catholics have become Anglican as a result.

Permit me to be frank. I am under the impression that many Eastern Catholics have little idea of the terrible liturgical battles that are being fought everywhere in the Roman Catholic Church -- not just in the West, but also in the even more difficult theological terrain of Asia and Latin America. I am sad to note that in this forum and elsewhere, the suffering of Latin Catholics due to bad, butchered and sacrilegious liturgies is often minimized.

Dwight might sound "uncharitable" and "inflammatory", but sad to say, there is truth in what he says.


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Originally Posted by dwight
This is the liturgy Anglicans can expect when they decide to leave the Episcopal Church and enter the Catholic Church.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
Why would they bother?


Because that is invariably what you have to choose from? Hardly.

With some of the work I have done I have frequented Roman parishes quite a bit. I can safely say that any priest who pulled that in any number of places would - canonical penalties be damned - tossed out with use of his belt loops.

It can be a hobby of some to go to the over-played "Clown Mass" and the like to illustrate the worst of the profane. In a nation where Catholics number 60,000,000 don't be surprised to find fools like that. Let's not paint them as the norm either.

Several months ago I was noticably dressed down on another thread for registering my disgust with tendancies I notice to take the absurd and spin it to make a point. I am going to be more charitable this time around to avoid the same or similar fate... But the simple fact of the matter is you certainly can find sinners, but look closer and see the saints.

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Originally Posted by dwight
This is the end result of the Reformation. Sola Fide means we just have to believe a few vague things and be able to quote a few scripture passages. Sola Scriptura means I can emphasize any scripture passage that might vaguely suopport my position or toss a book out if it contradicts my ideas. And private interpretation of scripture means the the Bible means whatever I want it to on any particular day and might mean something else next week if I decide I want to commit some extra sin.
I doubt that many conservative Anglicans will find the latin rite of the Catholic Church very attractive. Why leave the episcopal church to listen to sermons by elderly nuns in pantsuits and receive communion in the hand from immodestly dressed eucharistic ministresses with the priest reduced to a vague role as "President of the Assembly."?


You are forgetting about all of the Anglican-use communities who have entered the Catholic Church. We have one here in Scranton. Their priest entered the Catholic Church because he LIKES the "hard" teachings like Humanae Vitae (which, as a married man, he lives out, being the father of several children). The Liturgy uses Elizabethan English ("quick and the dead", etc.), which is obviously not "inclusive", and the music is much preferable to what is served up in Novus Ordo places.

Dn. Robert

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Now come on Dwight that is hardly tipical of the Latin right.
As a whole the Latin litugy is solid, I travel around the world a lot and have never experienced a liturgy like that.
Just look at the group that was behind it.
Call to Action. Looks like some group of geriatrics (rolfl)left over from the hippy movement high on pot and doing a trip.
Stephanos I
I once wrote and emailed to this group to cease troubling our parish with their heresies.

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Originally Posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon
Originally Posted by maxpercy00
All these other things aside, I always wondered how someone whom is divorced, like Mr. Robinson, got to be a bishop?


The Church of England began with divorce, afterall.

Dn. Robert


True enough, but after that were bishops permitted to be divorced?

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Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Quote
Quote
Quote
This is the liturgy Anglicans can expect when they decide to leave the Episcopal Church and enter the Catholic Church.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NSbiL3XduvY
Why would they bother?

dwight:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

This is not the typical Liturgy of the Latin Catholic Church. We have been over this territory on this forum in the past. Just because there are people who profane the Liturgy it does not follow that this is the norm in the Latin Church. Did we see this type of thing when His Holiness, Pope Benedict was here in the United States and served the Liturgy?

I am a Moderator here and I not only take personal offense to your post and link but am issuing you a public warning about this type of inflammatory posting. If it continues or there is another such post, I will recommend to the administrators that your posting privileges be restricted for a period. This is strictly out of bounds for the Christian charity that characterizes this board.

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Moderator;

As somebody who has spent much of his very young life, and who has sacrificed much, fighting for the integrity of the liturgy in the Catholic bastion of Asia . . . Liturgical abuse of the worst and sacrilegious kind is very prevalent in the Catholic Church, not just in the USA and western Europe, but everywhere, even in supposedly devout and conservative Catholic countries such as the Philippines. I am aware of even worse abuses in Latin America.

Are such abuses the norm? No.
. . .
Dwight might sound "uncharitable" and "inflammatory", but sad to say, there is truth in what he says.


asianpilgrim:

You made my point above where I have bolded your own words.

Now let me make a comment. I've been doing the same battle you describe for, perhaps, longer than you have been alive. I've been scandalized by plenty of priests, but that does not excuse me from being charitable. We can speak our truth as we see it, but always with charitable words. Anger does nothing but paint one as a fringe person and marginalize the truth of what one is saying.

dwight made the statement that this clip he posted is the norm. I take offense to that because there are plenty of good, sound priests and bishops who are trying very hard to celebarte the Liturgy with the utmost reverence, prayfulness, and respect. To paint every Latin Liturgy witht he brush that dwight used is not only not charitable, but inflammatory--something we have little patience with here on this board.

You go on to do a laundry list of abuses that are certainly scandalous. However, by using "High Church Anglican" as a comparison you bring yourself into the category of those who cannot tell substance from surface. You state that this type of abuse is "prevalent" and that, too, you contradict by your own words. Sometimes we get so involved in looking for the abuses we forget what we are at Liturgy for and Who we are meeting there, despite the weaknesses of those who stand in persona Christi. IF all you are allowing yourself to experience at Liturgy are the surface abuses, you are missing out on the treasure that is the Liturgy. Even when the Liturgy is truly mangled, Christ is present and His Saving Sacrifice, Glorious Resurrection, and Longed-for Second Coming are mystically made present for us. We cannot forget that.

Your assumption that many Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) are unaware of the abuses in many places is without basis. If you have read any of the earlier threads on this board concerning this type of thing you would know that there have been some really scandalous clips posted that have asked, in all charity, where the Council of Bishops is at when this type of thing is going on. And the learning here is what makes us different onotologically from our Orthodox brethren, as His All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew, has stated. We had, for example, a clip of a bishop allowing a group of cross dressers to receive Holy Comunion from him at a Mass he celebrated. There is no Council of Bishops to step in and correct a brother bishop in the Catholic Church.

My offense here, asianpilgrim, was to the broad brush cheap shot at every Latin priest and bishop that dwight took. In any event, even if he believed that this was the case, he could have rephrased and stated the same thing in another tone.

This whole topic is moving far afield from it's original post. The discussion began with information about problems in the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States and its relationship to the entire Anglican Communion. It did not need to have a cheap shot taken at the Latin Church within that general discussion.

In Christ,

BOB

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Originally Posted by Edmac
Don't expect any exodus from the PE "church" any time soon.
The people who are still in it have swallowed so much
**** to date that they can only be expected happily to
swallow more. I wonder what proportion of them are
ex-RC's eager to accept anything but the Gospel. So limiting,
you know,all that narrow morality.

It makes one think better of the traditional practice of
burning heretics.

We're just sinners, too, but at least we know it.

How difficult to address this matter without descending to
vulgarity, humm, well, actually, obscenity.

Seriously now,folks, we need to pray for this
booby-hatch.

Edmac


And, just as many here are upset by the broad-brush painting of the RC church by the illustration from the You Tube clip, I am about at my end with the broad brush painting of Anglicans by holding forth Gene Robinson or Katharine Jefferts Schori as examples. And the bunk that I quote above is beyond the pale for me as a Christian to stomach.

For the last year or so, I have been attending an Anglo-Catholic parish that faithfully proclaims the Catholic faith and the Gospel of Christ. They put time, money, and care into the celebration of the Liturgy and Sacraments, offering only what they feel is the best to God, week after week. (An yes, that happens to be in non-inclusive, good old unintelligible Elizabethan English, with a more than healthy dose of Latin thrown in.) They staff and run a soup kitchen in the parish house, that on each weekday feeds many homeless and hungry, run a Creative Arts center that encourages young artists and offers lessons in music and art. They participate in turn, on the weekly "Midnight Run" that brings hot food, clothes, toiletries, etc. to the homeless living on the streets of New Haven at night. They have several reading groups, AA groups, and offer their facilities to the greater community. During term, the full choir sings the Office of Compline each Sunday evening at 9PM which draws between 180-200 (mostly) students to the church lit by candles and filled with Gregorian chant and Renaissance polyphony. It is probably the most well attended weekly service in the greater Yale University community, by the Yale University community. And this parish is not a large, suburban parish. It's an urban one. They struggle with finances and budgets, and an old and historic building that must be maintained. Yet day in and day out, it is open for the daily Offices and Mass, thanks to the services of affiliate priests where many people come in to pray or light a candle or escape the elements.

I could point you to the two RC churches in my very suburban, very lily white, white collar town, that are 5 times the size numerically, collect far more in one weekend than this parish does in a month, and do half (or less) as much in the community AND get the folks in and out of their "obligation" in 50 minutes tops.

I'm sorry to have gone on so, but I'm tired of hearing this drivel from the "PEC-USA/Anglicans are bad" crowd and from the "RC-USA is bad" crowd, as well. If you don't like where you go to worship--don't go there anymore. If you don't like where/how other Christians worship, don't go there either. But for crying out loud, calls for burning heretics and accusing others of going somewhere for an "easy Gospel" DON'T BELONG HERE! I'm yelling because I'm mad and fed up. This was a place to exchange ideas and dialog respectfully with others even if we didn't agree. I don't see that anymore.

Again, I apologize for the yelling and the candor with which I presented this post, before I get accused of slinking off to rub elbows with heretics and leaving for an easy Gospel, and perhaps censure by the moderators, I put myself into exile.

Happy Pentecost!

John K. (one of "us all")

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I think it is possible to find both good and bad everywhere. In my own city, there are priests who do a good job following the rubrics and presenting reverent masses. The crazies are here, too. It isn't that hard to find abuses, since they exist. It's not a perfect world and discipline varies from place to place depending on what the individual bishop will tolerate. I wish for Pope Benedict to have many years to bring order back to the liturgy. He's making a valiant effort.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
I think it is possible to find both good and bad everywhere. In my own city, there are priests who do a good job following the rubrics and presenting reverent masses. The crazies are here, too. It isn't that hard to find abuses, since they exist. It's not a perfect world and discipline varies from place to place depending on what the individual bishop will tolerate. I wish for Pope Benedict to have many years to bring order back to the liturgy. He's making a valiant effort.

Well said!

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