www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy What's Wrong with Gender-Neutral Bible Translations

Dr. John,

I am very confused by your post.

You seem to think that this is just a translation issue because we were 'one' with the Orthodox when Slavonic was the norm everywhere. Do you realize the differences in rubrics that exist now in the official translation compared to the red book and orthopraxis. Do you realize that one verse antiphons is not the norm? Do you realize how many litanies are cut out of the RDL? etc.

Go to St. Elias (a Greek Catholic parish) in Toronto sometime if you can and you will see a complete liturgy. It takes from 100-120 minutes as opposed to the 45 minute liturgies that take place in many parishes in the BCA. Now I can already hear the cries that it's not the time that matters, so on and so forth, but the salient point is don't tell me that we are greasing the skids back to the Orthodox when one can be in and out in under an hour. Why did I bring up the time factor, because anyone with a fifth grade education can figure out that things are missing from the RDL when they are in and out in under an hour.

If you are going to do any begging, I respectfully ask that you beg the BCA to allow the Red Book because it is the BCA that has changed and moved away from the people. Beg them to have Vespers and Matins at least at their cathedrals and at as many parishes as possible too. Beg them to remove the pews so that the people can do proper prostrations.

Your heart definitely is in the right place by having the fellowship with those you worship with, but it is matter of how much is too much for one to take. Some have a different breaking point. Some have a different place of refuge. Some have sought the Orthodox church, some, like myself, have gone to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

Monomakh

I find it rather interesting that you think the term "Theotokos" is perfectly understandable, but the word "mankind" is not.

I concur with this.

The future is not looking good. Many "Pirohy Rust Belt" churches
will be closing. The elderly parishioners with no Ruthenian Church near by(you know, the old "Chapels of Conveniece") will be forced to go to their local Roman Church. What will the few younger faithful do? Drive 10-20 miles to attend a Ruthenian RDL parish? Assimilate into a local RC parish? How many will choose to attend an Orthodox parish, and how many of those will just join the Orthodox Church of what ever jurisdiction?

U-C

Brother Monomakh, I hear your points and generally agree. "Dumbing down" the liturgy is not spiritually profitable; it deprives the community of 'prayer forms' that may (or may not) be useful to the baptized faithful. I do remember the 'Litany of the Catechumens' and wondered why we were doing this when we didn't have anybody coming in. But, hey, perhaps we were praying for folks in other parishes.

It's pretty clear that the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has had a number of emendations over time. The variances between the Greek and Serbian/Ukrainian/Russian/Romanian/Albanian/Damascene etc. recensions bear witness to this. The intro to the Liturgy involved the Patriarch getting vested in one place and then processing to the Temple is a clear example. Same for the bishop and the pastor. (Our opening psalms and litanies were present for 'something to do' while the clergy processed to the altar. It's the old musicians': "vamp until ready" practice!)

My own perspective is that of the Holy See: when doing anything regarding the liturgy, LOOK TO OUR ORTHODOX BRETHREN FOR THE MODEL. Thus, the Liturgikon published in Rome in the late 1940s should be the gold standard - it was and is the best delineation of what our liturgics have been.

This does NOT mean that we worshipping Christians can't make emendations. This has been the practice since time immemorial and gives the liturgists a reason to exist and study this. So, in the U.S., when it is Super-Bowl Sunday, and the priest decides to give a one minute homily, it's just accommodating the needs of the faithful. No biggie!! Liturgy is, as the term demands, the action of the people.

As for doing Vespers and Matins, I agree that they are among the most inspirational services because of their texts. But the fact is: people (even the most devout Orthodox) don't generally attend. Among Greeks, Othros is standard on Sunday morning before the Liturgy. But you can generally count on the fingers of one hand the folks who are there for the "Blessed be God". Vespers on Saturday is more a Slavic thing. A few people attend, but not many. I once went to the OCA cathedral in Boston for the Vespers of a feast day. The priest was vested and standing before the altar, waiting for someone to arrive. I, and another Jesuit seminarian came through the door, he looked at us and then began. Thank God we knew what to do, sorta-kinda.

The poor priest was a bit flummoxed when he realized that there were more Uniates in the church than Orthodox. (No problem - he was grateful that there was someone there to pray with him for the feast.) Thus, my perspective that we have to get beyond this Orthodox/Catholic stuff. It's the prayer and worship.

Ung-Certez, I agree that the future isn't looking too rosy for the Byzantine Catholic/Ruthenian churches in the Rust-Belt. Our older people will certainly be damaged by the closure of the local parish churches. Should they be forced to go Roman, it's a serious failure to provide for the people. Should they find an Orthodox parish that fulfils their spiritual needs, then all well and good. Johnstown parishes will be pretty comfortable with the same liturgical practices, music and 'family' atmosphere; OCA churches with their current issues and their GREAT RUSSIAN!! perspective might be somewhat uncomfortable.

One would hope that there would be serious examination of the current parishes and their locations and the assignment of priests to serve the people so that all the Byzantine Catholics (old and young) could have a satisfying home.

To be honest, I'd rather the older folks (and the youngers) find a spiritual home that mirrors their heritage so that they can continue to find God and practice their faith as they have done for many decades. In this case, jurisdiction shouldn't seem to be the primary concern.

I attend a Ruthenian parish (for more than 30 years!). The liturgy has 'changed' somewhat. But what keeps me attending is the people in the community with whom I have a relationship. They welcomed me more than 30 years ago - a strange Greek among the Carpatho's - and they continue to be the bedrock of the parish and my relationship to it. I could go elsewhere in a heartbeat, but when I list the names of the people in the parish and their kindness to me (and my stroke-victim Mom), I cannot consider going elsewhere. Indeed, it's kind of 'ethnic' and 'cradle', etc., but it works.

It's the people. Not the hierarchy, not the clergy, not the liturgy, or anything else. It's the baptized faithful who constitute the loving, baptized-Christian community. And I am eternally grateful for the wonderful people in our parish. And I hope that the people in 'dying' parishes will be able to find solace in being with other good Christian people of whatever jurisdiction. People who really care.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Dear Brother John,

In honesty, can we as Christians justify chopping the several hours out of the week that we give back to God as concessions to pastoral sensitivity? Isn't the role of the Church to elevate mankind to the level Of God, not drop the Godhead down to mortal levels? Should not the Church have expectations for the laity to meet? Yes, Orthos, and Vespers are poorly attended. Now we can address this in 2 ways. The first way is to eliminate them and pretend that there is no problem. The correct way, of course, would be to present the standard and educate and encourage the faithful to meet it. Just like in school. we can lower the standards and make everybody an A+ student (which, unfortunately, we have done in this country), or we can maintain proper standards and assist the students with meeting those goals.

As far as your comment "It's the people. Not the hierarchy, not the clergy, not the liturgy, or anything else. It's the baptized faithful who constitute the loving, baptized-Christian community.", this is congrgationalism. There are many good people right down the street from me. Nice, family oriented people, gathered together at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witness. What separates "these" good people from Christians? The hierarchy, the clergy and the liturgy that you have dismissed so readily.

Hold fast to that which has been passed on to you.

sinner Alexandr

Brother Alexander, I understand what you are saying. But the church is "congregational" in the sense that it is the baptized people who are the church. And when baptized people leave, the congregation is diminished.

And if we have the opportunity to ensure their continued participation, are we not sinning when we require adherence to a particular format for worship. This is not to say that we should jettison some things or everything, but rather that we should clamor to make sure that they (as well as everyone else!) is a part of the community. It's not a 'dumbing down' but rather a keen awareness of how to keep human communities intact.

The main question is: the Gospel demands that we love God and love our neighbors as we would love ourselves, and how do we encompass the un-churched to do this demand of the Lord? If we require adherence to one or other set of liturgical or cultural practices, we once again shoot ourselves in the foot and set ourselves apart from the reality of the world around us.

While 'coming apart from the world' and its values (spiritually!!) is a good thing, demanding that people adhere to a specific set of practices that are not consonant with peoples' real, daily lives, is setting the Christian community up for failure.

Holding to practices of XYZ year might be historically significant, but if people can't accommodate it, then what is the value. [I think of the fasting practices that prohibit me from 'back-boned' tuna fish during Lent, but allow Lobster and crab cakes. In my U.S. circumstances, eat the foolish tuna as the penance (as opposed to meat, shellfish or dairy) and give a pass to the Lobster and crabmeat. Not 'traditional', but surely penitential!] It's the circumstances that make the determination, not the rules in a book.

As for the liturgical practices, too often the services are at 8:00 or 10:00 a.m. Most working adults are at their jobs and can't attend. Sometimes the services are at 7 or 7:30 pm and many can't get to the church from work. In our current economy, many folks work beyond their usual quitting time. When the question is: 'church' or keeping the job and income, most will opt for a paycheck and a roof overhead and food on the table.

AS for the prayer, I find myself on the subway every morning and evening, and I hunker down in my seat (if I get one!) and I use this time to prepare my day and to pray that I do good to everyone that I meet. It's a good thing.

The Lord, as God, came down to us as a human being to show us how to live according to God's plan. We aren't denigrating God when we look to the Christ as the model for our lives. As a human being, He was human in all things, sin alone excepted. So, we look to the Lord as a guide for our lives. We must consecrate our human lives to God's plan in the most loving human way that we can devise. And the Lord of the Gospels is our model.

We must continually pray and meditate on the realities of our salvation so that we fulfill the mandates that Christ gave to us. And we must pray that the Holy Spirit will come to us to guide our every action - and He will come, because Christ promised this to us. We can't be afraid to change things for fear that we will screw up. The Holy Spirit, the butt-kicker of humanity, will be there to make sure that we do what the Lord demands of his baptized faithful.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

I agree too.

When we fail to attend church services without a good reason, we miss the mark (we sin), because we do not really love God. This prayer might be familiar ....


Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

John, wouldn't it be better to make people's life Church and God-centric rather than to merely accommodate God into the schedule of people? From what I see, people aren't leaving because Church is too demanding, but because they are spiritually unfulfilled by the Church's attempt to accommodate mammon. Don't water down the Bride of Christ to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Instead, raise the lowest common denominator to a level where all can become one in Him. Through the Grace of His Holy Church.

Alexandr

I understand the perspective of making our lives �God-centric� and subordinated to the spiritual reality of service.

The problem, clearly, is the fact that most working people have specific hours when they have to be at their stations. Taking time off for religious purposes is without a doubt covered by the Labor standards, but in reality it can lead to trouble. For the non-employed, whether retirees or students, there is not quite the same problem. Sister Elizabeth-Maria's perspective is a valid one, but it applies to the monastics, whose 'job' it is to meditate and to pray. For working people, it's a whole different reality.

I think the big thing is: how does one progress spiritually and in prayer (and good deeds!) while maintaining the employment that ensures a roof over one�s family�s head and food on the table � not to mention clothing and other �luxuries�.

Monastics have a leg up on us regular folks on this one. Their �job� is to meditate and pray. And the people provide support to the monasteries that enables the monastics to accomplish this necessary function in the Church.

For us working folks, we need to discern ways that we can accomplish the very necessary �work� that provides the paycheck, but also ways that we can fulfil our spiritual needs and not force a choice between the two. Here is where the 'gender-neutral' translations comes into play.

While earlier communities had clearly defined roles for men and for women, and their daily 'employment' tasks were clearly defined, our contemporary lives don't make too much of a distinction between men's jobs and women's jobs, and a unified language/description would seem to be more in order with respect to the current reality. So too, a use of 'common' words to exemplify scriptural messages for today's working people would seem to be the appropriate way to go.

I am more than aware of the referential elements of scriptural texts...."X in the Old Testament" refers to Jesus, so we have to maintain the 'male' referent" but on a more pedestrian and obvious level, the blunt, straightforward literal meaning of a text in terms of morals and behaviour needs to be primary. And if a moral obligation or 'lesson' applies to everyone with a soul, then ensure that the message is transparent enough to include both the boys and the girls, then don't restrict it to the boys only.

Blessings to All!

Dr John



















Prayer and meditation are critical for every Christian. And these activities take time. Thus, we MUST find ways that provide the time for meditation and prayer. This is a huge challenge in our everyday lives.

Problems arise when the �church� makes a schedule based on historical not contemporary realities, and expects the faithful to accommodate themselves to it, e.g., feast day liturgies at 10:00 a.m. when most working folk are at their desks or on the assembly line or other duty-station. Suggesting that these working folks are somehow abdicating their Christian responsibilities by being absent from services is just wrong.

In the �old country� (whatever that might have been), absenting one�s self from the fields for a few hours wouldn�t have been a huge problem. In the contemporary U.S., it�s grounds for termination. Not good.

A hundred years ago, labor unions (mostly loudmouth Irish and German Catholics � and Jews) fought for the weekend, and got it. Otherwise, Sunday would be just another workday and there would be no concession for people to go to church. And many unions still have Good Friday as a day free from work to attend church. In Europe, the workers still have Easter Monday as a holy-day to attend church, as well as Assumption Day in August, and All-Saints/All-Souls in November. Not to mention Christmas. But how far can we push?

The Church MUST be accommodating to the needs of its people as they engage in their daily work. We�re not agrarian societies anymore where one controls one�s schedule.

People should be encouraged to pray during the workday; they should be aided to take a minute or two � or ten � to stop and focus on God and their personal spiritual state, without jeopardizing their employment.

Liturgical celebrations must be attuned to people today, and to their workday realities. Historical elements are to be respected as part of our community history, but what is happening now needs to be the yardstick for determining what our contemporary practices should be.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Sorry for the craziness of the preceding post. I was editing and hit (apparently) a wrong key that submitted what I was working on.

How does one 'anathematize' a computer program?

Dr John

Dear Dr. John,

You wrote: �And to change them now is a real assault on the peoples' worship.�

That is the only thing in your post that is accurate. The bishops have assaulted the people with their reformation.

Lady Byzantine

A interesting article titled "Making the Word of the Lord PC" that appeared in the Irish Press in 2000. I think at about mid-way it quotes a Greek Catholic Archimandrite...

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/09/10/story359251138.asp

james

ps via crescat blog...

Mea culpa, it's not via the crescat... james

Brothers and Sisters, I beg your indulgence in my preceding post. I was working on several different ideas that were seperated and ultimately were spread apart in the post. And the program just enlisted them in the post. Sorry.

Blessings to All!

Dr John