The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Cathy Whittington, BinghamtonNYRosic, wamj2008, qmitchell, Adam54
5520 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (ast82401, 1 invisible), 63 guests, and 368 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,570
Posts410,849
Members5,520
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Ukrainian "Traditionalists" #290395
06/02/08 04:50 AM
06/02/08 04:50 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
A
asianpilgrim Offline OP
Member
asianpilgrim  Offline OP
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
Dear all:

No, this is NOT about the Society of St. Josaphat.

I was reading this superb article:

THE ICONOGRAPHY IN THE CHURCH OF THE GREAT MARTYR ST. GEORGE THE VICTORIOUS IN EDMONTON

And it mentions this:

"This movement was championed primarily by a number of Ukrainian Graeco-Catholic parishes that are attempting to eliminate various Latin strata that have accumulated over the years in their church. This movement received a powerful impulse when Patriarch Josyf the Confessor (Slipyj) was released from the Gulag. His presence in the West awakened a strong laymen’s movement which often favoured Byzantine iconography.

Even in the 1950-60s a number of “traditionalist” parishes were organized, for instance, St. Nicholas the Miracleworker in Toronto, St. Elijah in Brampton (both in the Canadian province of Ontario), Sts. Volodymyr and Ol’ha in Chicago, and the parish under discussion here – St. George the Great Martyr in Edmonton."


Were there other parishes in addition to the four mentioned here? And was this lay movement -- apparently inspired by Patriarch Joseph / Cardinal Slipyj -- ever formally organized during the 1950's and 1960's?

I'm also under the impression -- based on the comments I've been reading all the time here in ByzCath -- that this "traditionalist" movement never extended into Ukraine itself, but was mainly confined to the diaspora. (I remember my friend Simple Sinner remarking that he met a seminarian from Ukraine who said that the former's parish was "too Russian")

Is my impression correct or not?

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 06/02/08 04:52 AM.
Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: asianpilgrim] #290396
06/02/08 05:11 AM
06/02/08 05:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
The reference here is to a movement of thought,not an organized, structured body of some sort. Each of the four parishes mentioned has its own distinctive history - and three out of the four mentioned came about organically, without any difficulty between the parish and the local eparchy.

As to such issues as iconography (which seems to have given rise to the article), the renewal of authentic iconography can hardly be ascribed to a scant handful of parishes, or to any particular geographic region, Local Church, or ethnic group. One of the prime movers among the Ukrainians was Petro Kholodny, who was trained in Ukraine and produced the lovely iconography at Saint John's Greek-Catholic Church in Hunter, New York.

As to Patriarch Joseph, on this line he deserves a special mention for the magnificent Saint Sophia Catholicon on Via Boccea in Rome.

Then again, there is the glorious Saint Paul's Greek-Catholic Basilica at Harissa, Lebanon - which had no connection at all with the Ukrainians but must certainly be taken into account.

And so forth - I could go on all morning naming such lovely churches, and I would still not even have begun.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #290402
06/02/08 05:45 AM
06/02/08 05:45 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Norway
L
Latin Catholic Offline
Member
Latin Catholic  Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Norway
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
And so forth - I could go on all morning naming such lovely churches, and I would still not even have begun.

Fr. Serge


Benedicite!

This sounds like a perfect way to spend a quiet morning! smile

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: asianpilgrim] #290405
06/02/08 07:48 AM
06/02/08 07:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
Member
Diak  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Actually St. Elias parish was formed later (1970s), starting in borrowed space in a RC school, later moving to an abandoned prison chapel and finally to the beautiful temple in Brampton.

In Ukrainian the colloqualism used is literally translated as "Easternizer" rather than "traditionalist". It began in Ukraine in earnest with the episcopacy of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky and was especially fostered through his reform of the Studite monks and several academic institutions, his liturgical restorations, and his sending several "Eastern" Redemptorists such as Blesseds Mykola Charnetsky and Vasyl Velychkovsky to do fruitful mission work. Metropolitan Andrey passed the torch to Patriarch Josyp, and so on.

This sort of restoration was not limited to the Ukrainian Church of the time; the Melkites were also embarking on their own restorations. Pope Leo XIII was generally in favor of such things already at the close of the 19th century.

Sts. Volodymyr and Olha's provenance is a bit different - the founders did not see themselves as "traditionalists" but rather a group of parishoners who wished to continue the full celebration of their faith in the way they were accustomed to according to the Julian Calendar.

I would also say the three mentioned - Sts. V&O, St. Elias and St. Nicholas have each inspired now another generation of faithful, and have had immense impact outside of the parishes inspiring other parishes and missions to live fuller lives liturgically and communally.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Diak] #290410
06/02/08 08:36 AM
06/02/08 08:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
T
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Tim  Offline
Greco-Kat
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
My impression is that at least some of these parishes were formed because of a strong desire on the part of some people, and clergy, to retain the Julian calendar. There appeared also to be a strong resistance to the introduction of English. No doubt there were also other concerns.

Unfortunately, as sometimes happens in such cases, there was also considerable bitterness. Some very unkind things were said on both sides and there were several unfortunate incidents. Happily, time seems to have healed matters and there now seem to be quite cordial relationships between the parishes with which I am familiar (SS Volodymyr & Olha and the Cathedral parish in Chicago; Holy Trinity and the Ukrainian National Shrine in the DC area).

With the benefit of hindsight, one might ask whether there could not have been some way of meeting the needs of "Old Calendarites," Ukrainian speakers, and "traditionalists" without splitting parishes, and whether it really served the interests of the UGCC to have parishes within the territory of the Metropolitan Church in the US subject directly to the Patriarch/Archbishop Major. (I gather that this canonical anomaly may no longer be in effect.)

An objective analysis of the history of the formation of these parishes could yield valuable lessons for all Eastern Catholic Churches in this country. As our numbers decline (except, perhaps, among those still experiencing significant immigration), we need to look beyond our differences to find ways of working together (within our respective "Particular" Churches and among our various Churches) to assure our ability to fulfill our mission to the Universal Church and to the world in which we live.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Tim] #290414
06/02/08 10:00 AM
06/02/08 10:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
Member
Diak  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
While Tim makes some valid observations, I would disagree on one point. In the case of St. Elias, it was not a subset (or majority) of another parish breaking off because of the calendar, and the desire for English services was a prime focus. As such it does not fit the generalization of the above post. It was started "from scratch" with a couple of families and the great success of such a parish is an inspiration to all of what is possible, and is indeed in line with the desire for the restoration of our authentic traditions expressed by Metropolitan Andrey and Patriarch Josyp of blessed memory.

In all cases mentioned these generally the more active and full parishes (in attendance) in their respective eparchies. In the case of Sts. V&O, yes, to a great extent there are cordial relations and the clergy were present at our recent Eparchial Clergy Conference.

Was there a way to have worked the other situations out? God only knows, but the result is often vibrant parishes that keep a fuller liturgical life than many of their sister parishes. Is it better to have a parish essentially split between Julian and Gregorian factions within a parish community, or is it better to let them live out their own unique parochial witness as particular communities?

While the latter sometimes has brought unfortunate circumstances as we saw in Chicago in 1968, the greater freedom of a community to worship in a fuller sense of their received tradition in accord with authentic liturgical restoration is a good thing. It should ideally be done peacefully and charitably.

It would not be an insurmountable problem now in any UGCC Eparchy in the US to get permission to start a Julian calendar mission directly from the hierarch.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Diak] #290416
06/02/08 10:13 AM
06/02/08 10:13 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
A
asianpilgrim Offline OP
Member
asianpilgrim  Offline OP
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
Are there any "stats" on how many UGCC Julian-Calendar, liturgically delatinized parishes there are in the USA and Canada?

Just asking, ok.

I realize that I asked the same question some time ago in this very same forum, although the focus then was on individual parishes, not on the size of the movement as a whole.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: asianpilgrim] #290417
06/02/08 10:14 AM
06/02/08 10:14 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
A
asianpilgrim Offline OP
Member
asianpilgrim  Offline OP
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
Speaking of traditional iconography, that seems to be pretty much a won battle in most Greek Catholic jurisdictions.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: asianpilgrim] #290612
06/04/08 07:15 PM
06/04/08 07:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
What 'movement as a whole'?

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #290623
06/04/08 08:26 PM
06/04/08 08:26 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
A
asianpilgrim Offline OP
Member
asianpilgrim  Offline OP
Member
A
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Philippines
Father, bless!

I use the term "movement" here in a very loose sense. I was referring to the trend of retaining the Julian Calendar AND of having fully delatinized liturgies in the UGCC diaspora.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: asianpilgrim] #290928
06/07/08 09:56 AM
06/07/08 09:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
T
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Tim  Offline
Greco-Kat
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
Interesting insights from the several contributors.

I had hoped, however, that someone with more canonical "smarts" than I possess would explain what seemed to involve placing at least some of these parishes directly under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch/Archbishop Major. If this did happen: why did it? how did it operate? when and why was it discontinued? and what were the effects on the Eparchies from which these parishes were severed?

Were any alternatives to complete separation considered? How? By whom? Were the people of the two communities invlved in the decision?

Of perhaps more importance, what was the effect on the parshes from which these new parish communities came: Numbers of remaining parshioners? Strength of remaining parish organizations and institutions? Liturgical life? Service to and relationships with the surrounding community? Parish finances?

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Tim] #290946
06/07/08 01:26 PM
06/07/08 01:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
F
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
There were a scant handful (about 3, I think) of Ukrainian parishes which were more-or-less within the direct jurisdiction of Patriarch Joseph, although the local bishops issued the clergy with jurisdiction and the Patriarch made it clear that the dependence on him could only be a temporary expedient.

Over time, all three parishes agreed to accept - under certain conditions - the jurisdiction of the local bishops, and that was that. By tolerating the situation for a time, Patriarch Joseph saved the Church from a full-blown schism and ultimately succeeded in accomplishing a reconciliation.

Many decades earlier, before there was any Greek-Catholic hierarchy in the diaspora, Cardinal Sembratovych exercised de facto jurisdiction over some of the clergy and parishes in the USA. Again, though, this was a temporary expedient.

Fr. Serge

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #291087
06/09/08 08:49 AM
06/09/08 08:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
T
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Tim  Offline
Greco-Kat
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
VIRGINIA
Thank you, Fr. Serge, for providing some helpful background.

I must confess, however, to some misgivings about any 'solution' to a local problem that involves intervention from 'above', wherever the 'above' may be located. No doubt canonical precedent can be found for 'assisting' a local bishop by taking a problem under the wing of some 'higher' authority. And analogies may be seen in the unique relationship to local hierarchs of some religious orders and of some pious societies. (Opus Dei comes to mind.)

In the case of the UGCC 'Old Calenderites', however, the situation seems less clear. The Mother Church was in the process of re-birth when this happened, as I recall. Setting aside the delicate matter of the Patriarchate, and recognizing the assertion implied in the more-recent construction of the 'Patriarchal Sobor' in Kyiv, it does not, even now, seem to have been conceded by Rome that the canonical territory of the Archbishop Major/Patriarch extends beyond Western Ukraine (and, perhaps, the immediate environs of Kyiv). I believe it may still be the case that UGCC bishops in Eastern Ukraine are termed "exarchs." In any case, it would seem that the Patriarch was not as close to the issue as were the American hierarchs.

Granted that the situation of the handful of UGCC parishes under the direct supervision of the Patriarch/Archbishop Major seems to have worked out well (due, in no small part, as I see it to the unique capabilities of some of the pastors of the break-away churches). I am left feeling that, if the UGCC in the US is itself a Pomyshna Tserkva/Ecclesia Sui Juris/"Paritular Church", it would have been better for the Patriarch to help mediate a solution that respected the ecclesial character of the Church in America and reinforced the position of the American hierarchs.

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Tim] #291089
06/09/08 09:08 AM
06/09/08 09:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Pgh, PA USA
M
Mykhayl Offline
Member
Mykhayl  Offline
Member
M
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Pgh, PA USA
C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY!

Was the position of the American bishops organic or egocentric?

Re: Ukrainian "Traditionalists" [Re: Tim] #291091
06/09/08 09:24 AM
06/09/08 09:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
Member
Diak  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Quote
I must confess, however, to some misgivings about any 'solution' to a local problem that involves intervention from 'above', wherever the 'above' may be located. No doubt canonical precedent can be found for 'assisting' a local bishop by taking a problem under the wing of some 'higher' authority. And analogies may be seen in the unique relationship to local hierarchs of some religious orders and of some pious societies. (Opus Dei comes to mind.)


Certainly avoiding overt schism is the higher good and should allay any "misgivings" in the end, unless those "misgivings" are based solely on allowing those communities to practice particular customs such as following the Julian Calendar. Since in all cases the resolution ended with each parish being a vibrant parish for their respective eparchies, the end result benefitted the Church as a whole.

Quote
In the case of the UGCC 'Old Calenderites'
is a misnomer. The formation of the Orthodox "Old Calendarist" churches, especially Greece, did entail a formal schism from the standing hierarchy. No such thing happened in the UGCC, and all parishes (and portions of parishes, as some parishes have dual commemorations based on the calendar) that have chosen to remain with the Julian Calendar are in good standing in the UGCC. Many Ukrainians simply prefer the Julian Calendar. If I prefer beef to chicken, I suppose that makes me a "beefist" as well.

Quote
it does not, even now, seem to have been conceded by Rome that the canonical territory of the Archbishop Major/Patriarch extends beyond Western Ukraine (and, perhaps, the immediate environs of Kyiv).


The Synod elects bishops even outside of Ukraine; the selection is sent to Rome for concurrance, not approval. I'm not sure what you are getting at with respect to the calendar issue - this seems to have little relevance.

Quote
believe it may still be the case that UGCC bishops in Eastern Ukraine are termed "exarchs."

Again this has little to do with the calendar issue. If we want to discuss the complicated ecclesiastical history of Rus'-Ukraine and the politically driven divisions of ecclesiastical territories, that would be an entirely different discussion.

Quote
In any case, it would seem that the Patriarch was not as close to the issue as were the American hierarchs.

Not in the case of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha. Patriarch +Josyp not only personally visited the community on several occasions but visited Bishop +Yaroslav (Gabbro) as well during the deliberations.

Quote
Granted that the situation of the handful of UGCC parishes under the direct supervision of the Patriarch/Archbishop Major seems to have worked out well (due, in no small part, as I see it to the unique capabilities of some of the pastors of the break-away churches). I am left feeling that, if the UGCC in the US is itself a Pomyshna Tserkva/Ecclesia Sui Juris/"Paritular Church", it would have been better for the Patriarch to help mediate a solution that respected the ecclesial character of the Church in America and reinforced the position of the American hierarchs.


This is basically what happened in the case of V&O. Bishop +Yaroslav did not petition to Rome to interfere with Patriarch +Josyp's decision and deferred the creation of V&O under his patriarchal omophorion until things could settle down, realizing the higher good was served in allowing this solution rather than more pressure and schism. The particularity of the Church was what solved the problem, rather than Rome's intervention.

These parishes eventually blended back into their respective eparchies, and have good relations with the local eparchs. Time and and patience are essential in mediation of longer-term resolutions of difficult disputes when tempers and passions are too high at the local level, and I believe Patriarch +Josyp indeed saw prophetically these things would work out in time.

One can point to historical examples in the Latin Church when the local bishop and some religious orders have not seen eye to eye and Rome had to intervene. It is not without precedent in any Church.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2018. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.024s Queries: 15 (0.009s) Memory: 2.0472 MB (Peak: 2.2713 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-08-14 19:24:16 UTC